Oct 5, 2020
Podcasting has taken off as a business marketing strategy, but while many businesses have podcasts, not all of them are successful. Here's what it takes to get your podcast in front of the right audience.
This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Motion Agency co-founder Justin Brown shares the strategies he uses to promote both his own podcast, and the podcasts he produces for clients.
Motion Agency provides podcasting services for B2B tech marketers and Justin has worked with a lot of different companies to get better marketing results through podcasting.
In this interview, he talks about how to promote your podcast, including repurposing the content, sharing on social, using graphic assets to gain greater visibility and more.
Check out the full episode, or read the transcript below, for details.
Resources from this episode:
Kathleen (00:01)Welcome back to the inbound success podcast. I'm your host, Kathleen Booth. And my guest this week is Justin Brown, who is the co founder of motion. Welcome Justin,
Justin (00:20)Kathleen, thank you so much for having me.
Kathleen (00:23)Yeah. it's so funny because you and I connected, you were connecting with me as a potential guest and I'm thinking, Oh, you know, I wonder where he is and we were talking and you're right around the corner in Northern Virginia. So it's kind of nice to have a local guy on the podcast.
Justin (00:39)Yeah, it was funny when we were talking, I know you're in Annapolis and I'm here in old town Alexandria. And for those who don't know, we're like on opposite sides of DC, but very similar towns on on the water. So we're, we're close in proximity and kind of just the, the place that we live. Yeah.
Kathleen (01:00)Yes. Like twin cities in spirit. Well, before we get started can you maybe talk a little bit about yourself what you do, your journey and also what motion does?
Justin (01:14)Yeah, absolutely. So I have an interesting journey. I started my career in sales development. That was my first exposure to marketing. When I was doing it, I didn't really realize, and this was before the time of sales development falling under the, the marketing umbrella. So I thought I was just going to be a salesperson that was going to be my career. Then from there I ended up becoming a head of sales for an agency and you can already kind of see how these things are all starting to splice together. You know, I got this sales development background, then I go work for an agency. Fast forward to today. I've started my own agency where we help B2B tech companies to launch podcasts. So that's where I am today. I work with and talk to CMOs regularly. I have a podcast of my own. So I work with CMOs and tech as my clients, I talk to CMOs and tech on my podcast and that's really what I do with my life.
Kathleen (02:13)Awesome. Well, I'm a CMO in tech, so, and I'm also passionate about podcasting. Yeah, I have two podcasts right now, one this one, and then the other is one I do for my company. And actually I had one before this, so this is my third. I'm a three time podcaster.
Kathleen (02:32)So big, big fan of it. And you know,
Justin (02:35)So maybe you can tell other CMOs why it's so important.
Kathleen (02:39)Oh, well, I mean, I could, that could be a whole episode in and of itself. Like honestly I could go on and on. It's so valuable for so many reasons. And we have actually a couple times on this podcast, talked about the value of podcasting, but what we really haven't dived into as much is for those who are podcasting, what are some things you need to do to really build your audience and make your podcast successful? And that was one of the reasons I was excited to talk with you because you also helped your clients with that. And specifically you have some thoughts around LinkedIn. So I was hoping that we could start there.
Justin (03:19)Yeah, for sure. So I think where I want to start is, pod fade is a real term. I think the average podcast last five episodes and that's because the startup cost is very, very minimal to start a podcast. I mean, really, I could, you could hit record on this zoom conversation like we're doing, you could hit record on a voice note on your phone and call it a podcast. And it sure is the issue is, is it takes time. It takes, thought it takes energy and what are you getting out of it? And I think that people the, as this podcasting medium is new into B2B for a long time, it was even in business, a B2C focused for the most part, people had B2B podcasts, but you know, it was a, here's how, you know, Chobani, yogurt got in stores across America or whatever, because you're trying to appeal to wide audiences.
Justin (04:17)That's something that my mom would listen to. My mom's not going to listen to a CMO in tech talk about how their Salesforce integrations are changing the game. But I would listen to that. And so we're building out this world of smaller niche podcasts. Well, that's great for the content, but it's tough for conversions. People are like, I want to see an increased web traffic to my site. We're releasing episodes. Why aren't people filling out forms saying that they heard about us or from us from our podcast. And the reason is, is because that shouldn't be what the focus of your podcast is, and that kind of breaks some traditional inbound mentality, which is do content, get leads, get MQL, get results. And that's not, that's not exactly what this is. And I can dive into some of the approaches that we recommend or go really whatever direction you want me.
Kathleen (05:25)Well, before we do that, I just want to say amen. Because I mentioned that I had a podcast before the ones I'm doing now, and, and that was exactly kind of my lesson learned was I started the first podcast when I had my, I was, I owned an agency at the time and I was like, Oh, I'm going to start a podcast and get leads. Exactly like you talked about. And I did it for, I don't know, 20 something episodes. And I was like, yeah, this is not going to get me leads. And so then you really have to think about like, so what's my goal as you said. And, and I think, I do think a lot of first time podcasters jump in without really thinking through the goal and the strategy and all that. And so when I created this podcast, it was more about raising brand awareness getting, and at the time I still owned my agency, obviously don't have it right now, but it was about getting our name into the conversation in the marketing world.
Kathleen (06:20)And, and it's morphed over time. Like for me now, the goal is relationship building. Like I it's, to me, this is an amazing way to meet experts within the marketing industry and to form relationships that can lead to other opportunities, but then also secondary to that, or maybe even not secondary, like I just learn a lot as a host. It's kind of amazing. So everybody's goals are different, but I could not agree with you more that for the vast majority of podcasts lead gen is really not. It's not a great strategy for that
Justin (06:53)Can be a great strategy for target account lead gen. I will say that so we recommend that you go after five different personas for your podcast. And if we talk about that relationship building aspect what you're going to do is get relationships with the people in your space, customers, internal subject matter experts, that's to industry influencers, partners. And then the final one is prospects. You know, the same idea of sending someone, something in the mail to try to capture their attention. You can bring them onto your podcast to highlight them and create a relationship with someone that you didn't previously know. Obviously don't just flip it right away into a sales call and try to you know, kind of pull the chair out from underneath of them, but they understand, you know, if you've been reaching out and trying to get in front of them, and then you have a different ask, which is, Hey, I was wondering, OK you don't need to come on my demo, but would you be open to being featured on our podcast? They get it. And usually they're excited about that. Anyway, people like to be able to talk about their personal brand, but it should be a flavor of those five things with traditional lead gen only being a small portion of that.
Kathleen (08:13)Yeah. And what's interesting to me is that, and I can only speak from my personal experience, you know, I've had the opportunity to interview people who otherwise, I can't imagine why they would ever have a conversation with me. You know what I mean? Like not to talk myself down, but but you know, people will say yes, a lot of the time to a podcast interview because it is great marketing for them. And so some of the people I've interviewed, it's been the result of purely cold outreach, like Goldie Chan, great example. I really wanted to meet her. She's somebody who's an amazing LinkedIn video creator. She's actually moved on to other things now, but I just had no, like outside of my podcast, I had no entree whatsoever, no reason for that. She would take my call, you know, but I tweeted her and I was like, I would just really love to interview you for the podcast. And she said, yes. And how awesome is that? And now I have a relationship with this person that I just think is amazing. And I've learned so much from, and you know, she's just one example and there are handfuls of them in the course of the podcast history, cause I'm almost 160 episodes in. So I've had so many great opportunities to meet people who are like my marketing idols, but also other people who maybe I have never heard of, but who are amazing. So I love that part of it.
Justin (09:34)Yeah. I actually just released on LinkedIn the other day, a post about how it's a great way to have conversations with customers. You know, you hear all the time, people say marketing should listen to what the customer is saying. So how do you do that? Right. Well, here's one option. Let's do a sales call our prospects going to be a hundred percent honest on sales calls about all the things that they're going through and experiencing. So bring your prospects and customers on and have these 30 to 60 minute conversations, not about your technology or what it is that you sell, but just about what they're experiencing and going through similarly to you, I've recorded a couple of hundred episodes. I actually know what CMOs go through. I know what is frustrating. I know. And that wasn't me saying, so, you know, what are you dealing with in terms of content marketing and how can I help?
Justin (10:26)It was like, I got a full picture of what they're experiencing and going through to then say, wow, this is what these, these folks are good at what they like to do and enjoy. And this is where they maybe need a little bit of help. You know, your other option. Your other option with the customer is to say, Hey, do you want to take 30 minutes to talk? I don't know about you all, but me personally, I have enough zoom meetings during the day that if I'm buying something from somebody, I probably just want them to give me the service and you know, and nothing against them or anything. But if they said, Hey, Justin, you know, would you mind coming on our podcast and talking to us and spending some time together there? Okay, you've got my attention. And then you can go talk to your customer. Maybe they drop, you know, a line about how they're using your technology. It's not a testimonial, but you know, maybe they talk about it or what have you. So there's a lot of things
Kathleen (11:18)That you can do. Yeah. Now, okay. We clearly are big fans of this as a medium. Again, we could do a whole episode on this. So let's say you're podcasting and you've got these episodes and it is totally the tree that fell in the forest, right? If there's nobody there to see it fall, does it make a sound? So talk me through how you counsel your clients on what they should do once the episode's been created to get it out there into the world.
Justin (11:48)For sure. So I think that is the big move that we made was we were a content marketing agency. We will, we'll build your website, we'll write a white paper for you, whatever, you know, we'll do video, whatever it may be. And what we found was when we launched our podcast in 2019, was that it's not just about this little audio recording that you get, that you throw up on Apple podcasts and Spotify. What we found was what it really is, is capturing 30 to 40 minutes with someone in your space, those five profiles that I mentioned before, and then getting to create content out of it, it's the best type of content that you can create. It's people having organic conversations about what they're experiencing in your space. And so then your promotion strategy becomes around the content itself. Not necessarily just about hey, do you want to listen to my podcast and hoping that people convert then your conversion strategy becomes very similar to anything you'd be doing with content anyway, promoting your content, getting it out there in front of the people, in your space and providing useful assets that people want to consume because they're actually getting educated.
Justin (13:13)You know, I'm an agency owner. If I go out there and tell a bunch of CMOs how they should be doing their job, they're not going to listen to me. But if I say, Hey, I've interviewed a hundred CMOs. And here's what each one of them are saying. All of a sudden, I start to get people's attention. So if we fast forward to your question, which is, you know, how are you suggesting to promote the podcast? The answer is, is using the content on LinkedIn, on Twitter, on the platforms that you use for me, it's mainly LinkedIn. And so we have, we chop each episode up into eight different deliverables because people consume content in different ways. There are video assets that are, that we create called audiograms. There are imagery which are called quote cards, which are static images with a quote on them.
Justin (14:02)We have featured articles that go out that are actually blog, you know, long form blog posts written about things that were said on the transcripts and what you need to do. And what we advise that our clients do is it's not just about posting to your company page. It'll be interacts with a company page. Maybe they throw you a like here and there. Maybe they say, eh, you know, they see someone who they know and they say, you know, Hey Jimmy, you did a great job on that episode night, nice to work. But for the most part, what people want to do is they want to interact with their people and they want to, they want you to have opinions about the content. So I don't just say, Hey, I released another episode, check it out because people aren't on people go to LinkedIn and to consume content there.
Justin (14:55)So by me saying, go check out my podcast, you know, search Apple podcasts. So if somebody's literally going to read my post on LinkedIn, pull out their phone, and then they're going to type in my podcast, tech qualified. Then they're going to throw in headphones. They're going to sit there for 30 or 40 minutes and listen to it. Probably not. And that's not what I want my content to do. I already captured this episode. I have my set of listeners. What I want to do is I want to take hard-hitting quotes. I developed another one of the deliverables is a transcript. And I pour over that transcript. What were some maybe controversial things that were said, some interesting things that were said that are different that might get people talking, take that, give my opinion of it on LinkedIn, and then let other people start to chime in and interact with me, not with motion, my company and they're talking to, and we're not Wendy's.
Justin (15:50)And you know, I know I use this example with you, Kathleen, but Wendy's is a great social profile. They do a great job. They're funny. People tweet at them because they want Wendy's to tweet back. I would say 95%, maybe more, and this is not a hard number, but are brands that people don't care if they interact with they want to interact with people. They want to interact with you. They want you to have opinions and then to chime in comments, start conversation on LinkedIn around that. So I'll stop there. I've got a lot more thoughts here, but I'll let you kind of interject and give your, your thoughts as well.
Kathleen (16:27)Justin, you and I have like a mind-meld going, because I just did a rant on LinkedIn about this yesterday. That like, I don't know. I don't know why more people don't understand this more marketers, more specifically more executives. What you just said is so important. So I want to take a pause. If you are listening, I want to repeat something he said, which is that basically nobody wants to really follow and engage with a company. There are companies that have really great witty social media presences. And I would say those are like few and far between, and that's great if you have that, but it's still no substitute for people engaging with people. So think about your own behavior. When you go to LinkedIn. I know when I go there, I'm not like, Ooh, that corporation just posted again. I got to reply to them.
Kathleen (17:20)No, not at all. I might look at their posts, but I'm not like carrying on conversations with companies on LinkedIn. I am carrying on conversations with people 100% of the time, but it's so fascinating to me because when I talk to CEOs, so many of them don't understand why it's important for not only them, but like multiple people within the company to have strong personal brands. I mean, the, the best companies, I was just discussing this with somebody yesterday. The best companies I think on LinkedIn are the companies where it's like in the culture. So like Drift is a great example of that. Like all of their employees are really active on LinkedIn. I want to say it's probably part of the job description. Like everybody's doing it. They're all doing it really well. It's baked in, there's probably really good training and they have an amazing presence that people really engage with versus that company that just like posts, self promotional stuff to their feed all the time. And that's it. It's just so boring. The ladder is so boring. So again, I totally agree with you.
Justin (18:27)Yeah. And, and I think that's what, and what the podcast does is it gives you something to talk about, you know, for me and I get it, there are so many people that are out there that feel that they, that they have imposter syndrome or no, one's going to care about what they have to say. And for me, the podcast gave me a voice because I wasn't using only my own ideas to go out there and start to talk. I was taking ideas from the people in my space and then giving my own opinion on them. So they gave me kind of clout if you will. Because these are recognizable names in my space to the people in my space. And once people see that, then you know, I actually have a topic that I can talk to because it's clearly a topic that the people in my space care about because they talked about it on the podcast.
Justin (19:23)So I think, you know, the common misconception, if we go back to it, is that a podcast is going to do the work for you. What a podcast is going to do is it's going to create the foundation of content for you to be able to distribute, to put on your site stuff that people are actually going to care about and then stuff for you to talk about. And you mentioned executives, you know, that's one of the biggest reasons that we recommend bringing on internal subject matter experts onto your podcast, get them to be evangelists of the show, get them to start to see that they have a voice, empower the people in your organization to get out there and start talking about what it is that you're doing.
Kathleen (20:03)Yeah, it's, it's so important. So let's say somebody is listening and they're thinking, okay, I have a podcast, or I'm totally gonna create one and bought into this notion that it can be the thing that seeds my contact, my content on LinkedIn. It gives me something to talk about. Can you talk a little bit about like, how you go about building your personal brand on LinkedIn and how you like get a little more granular on how you use that content?
Justin (20:29)Yeah, for sure. So a few things with your posts. Try to follow some guidelines of writing copy for LinkedIn. There are all sorts of books that are being written about the way that people digest copy on LinkedIn. So just kind of separate your lines a little bit so that it makes it easy for the, those reading. That's, that's simple in terms of the tactical approach to it. Consistency is King on LinkedIn. You get rewarded for being consistent on the platform. You will increase your visibility. So for me personally, I put out one post a day and this is what I recommend for my clients and anybody who I'd be talking to one post a day, have it go out early in the morning so that it's there all day long, maybe plan it out, you know, the day before.
Justin (21:23)So you're not, or, you know, in advance. But try to make it personable, try and make yourself vulnerable and show, you know, what you're going through, what you're experiencing, some things that you heard or are seeing things that you feel like if you saw this, you would have an opinion on it cause you want to get people to interact with the content. So when you write your post and whether that has an image or video, or it's just, text-based try to have some sort of call to action to get people to chime in. And so that's your, your personal outpour right there. Now, if you're just getting started, the biggest recommendation that I can give to you, well, two things, one don't get frustrated when you don't have it. It's definitely comparison is the thief of joy kind of situation where you see you have this great post and then you see posts that for whatever reason you may feel are inferior to the posts that you posted yet.
Justin (22:28)It has 2000 reactions, 760 comments, and it was two lines that really didn't empower your community in any way. That's fine. Don't get discouraged by that. It takes time. Most of those people who have that kind of engagement have been at this for a long, for like a year plus posting every single day. And the second piece of that, that I was going to say is commenting on other people's content that is going to be thought. And my my personal approach with LinkedIn is I'm not there for hot takes. I try to be thoughtful and everything that I post for myself. And I try and think about if it's going to help the people in my community, which is CMOs in tech. And with my comments, I try to beat them. So it's not just 100% absolutely agree. I try to give, you know, almost like a pseudo, a post of my own. That's like maybe a full paragraph or, you know, two short paragraphs on my opinion that are thoughtful comments. And when you, I do that and I try and do 10 a day. And when you do that, you watch the the inbound connections increase. Because, I mean, I can't tell you how many connections I've had that said, I saw your comment on so, and so's, I thought it was insightful. I hope to hear more from you. And then the more connections that you get, then your content will then start to get interacted.
Kathleen (24:10)So I want to say something about that, because this is a debate I've had a lot with my husband. I don't talk about him. I don't talk about him a lot on this podcast. I'm just, cause I don't like to mix the personal with the work,
Justin (24:22)But I'm excited now for what it's going to be.
Kathleen (24:25)Yeah, well so it's so funny. The first podcast I ever had was called, he said, she said like a marketing and sales podcast and he's a sales person and I'm a marketer and it was just like us arguing with each other. And so one of the debates we have is around LinkedIn and accepting connection requests. And it's really interesting cause I've done, I wouldn't say I'm the most consistent person on the planet, but I try to post pretty often on LinkedIn and I, you know, I have opinions that I put out there and this and that, and I'm pretty into like building my brand. I hate to call it that, like building my brand on LinkedIn, but it's like other stuff I'm passionate about. So I talk about it. So my, and I, Oh, go ahead.
Justin (25:03)Oh, I was going to say is, you know, I know that people sometimes get weird about saying that. I do want to say if you're not someone who's super active on LinkedIn, it has gotten incredibly better over the last six months. So I, I have no shame in that game.
Kathleen (25:19)Yeah. Agreed. And, and so the debate we have is that I pretty much accept connection requests from like everybody. It's very rare that I don't accept one. There has to be some major red flags and that he, on the other hand is very picky. Like he has to know you and you know, this and that. And, and then he wonders why he doesn't get a lot of engagement with his LinkedIn posts. And I'm like, well, you don't have any connections. I'm like, I connect with everybody because why not? Like, what is the harm? LinkedIn has changed. When it first started it was definitely like, this is my network. And so for sure, there are times right now, and it just happened to me yesterday, when somebody will message me and say, I see that you're connected with so and so. Can you make an intro?
Kathleen (26:06)And I gotta be like, I'm sorry, I don't know that person from Adam, you know, they're in my, they're in my network, but I don't know them. And I'm sure he, on the other hand, if somebody reached out and asked him that same question would be like, absolutely, this is my good friend. So, it is a trade off. And I'm sure there's people have strong feelings about this, but I guess it depends on what your goal is. Like if your goal is to get your content out there to really build your audience, then you should be accepting lots and lots of connection requests. That's just my opinion. And it's probably controversial, but that's what I do.
Justin (26:40)I accept everybody. I mean, if I, if somebody, I heard a new term recently when somebody sends you a a LinkedIn request and immediately pitch slaps you, which I thought was funny, very common. So, you know, I get those just as much as the next person, but you just ignore them. I just ignore it or I say, no, thanks. Not right now. Because for me, I want my LinkedIn rewards content that gets interacted with. Yeah. So if that person who wants to, you know, pitch me I create a decent relationship with them and just say, Hey, you know, I'm not interested maybe in the future. But it's nice to connect with you. And that person starts throwing me. You know, reactions are basically likes or a comment on my content. I move up LinkedIn's algorithm. I get more, I get viewed by more folks, you know?
Justin (27:42)So for me, that's beneficial for some people who get frustrated by that, or, you know, they want to be able to go search through their connections quickly to go see, you know, who they want to talk to that day, especially for somebody in sales that could be valuable. It's kind of like their own, you know, personal Rolodex. I get it. For me, I want to have broad reach. And I want people interacting with my content. I want to get rewarded for that. So for me, the reason that I'm going out and I'm commenting is two fold. One is I want the people who I'm interacting with the people in my space to start to recognize my face and say, Hey, yo, that guy, you know, he always comments on my stuff. And you know, I appreciate that. And I remember him. So that's one. And then the second is that you increase the amount of inbound requests that you get. Because I don't want to go out and spam the entire LinkedIn universe with connection requests. I want those connection requests to be real. And it's really nice when they start to come my way and they come my way by interacting with others.
Kathleen (28:51)Yeah, totally. I mean, I will say again, I accept all the requests and since I've started using this approach that you're describing, like I probably get 10 new connection requests a day. So it does work for sure. Again, it's not for everybody, but certainly if you're in marketing or sales, I would say this is a game changer.
Justin (29:13)And if you don't feel like you have anything to say right now for yourself, commenting is still valuable. You don't need, and it's a lot less putting yourself out there because it's okay. If a comment gets no interactions every morning and I put a, I put a post out on this the other day and this is, you know, just me being like I've mentioned vulnerable and honest and telling real life stories. Every morning I, I come into my office and I take 10 coins and I put them out on my desk and I put them away one by one throughout the day for each comment that I do keeps me honest. I know my day's not over until I do that. And that is a way that I've really increased that inbound connection requests. I think I'm up like 250% since I stayed consistent with that.
Kathleen (29:58)There's an awesome trick. So again, pause, if you're listening super great way to build a habit, get 10 items can be coins, could be paperclips, whatever, floats your boat, put them on your desk. And over the course of the day, take one away. Every time you make a comment. And at the end of the day, you'll have no items left in the pile.
Justin (30:17)I know, I know the audience can't see, but yeah, this is my Boba Fett.
Kathleen (30:21)Give it a shake.
Justin (30:22)This is my Boba Fett piggy bank I got like five Christmases ago as a, as a joke gift. And yeah, I use it every day, take out my 10 coins. And I know that I don't get up from this desk and my day until I've commented on 10 people's things. And I know it sounds maybe silly or trivial.
Kathleen (30:41)Oh, whatever works it does. Yeah.
Justin (30:44)People appreciate it. Think about yourself. If you put something out there and you're nervous about what you were going to say or, or what you were going to put out and nobody interacts with it, everybody out there is feeling those same feelings and they appreciate the comments. And what you'll also find is it's best practice on LinkedIn to respond to all comments. So even if you see like a post that has 60 comments on it, you'll be surprised at the amount of people who will respond to what you have to say, regardless of how big their name is. And that's something that I've found to be really nice about the LinkedIn community is if you take the time to say something insightful, a lot of people are going to take the time to say something insightful back. And it's, it becomes this very much. You know, I scratch your back. You scratch mine kind of community.
Kathleen (31:37)Yeah. And I would, I agree with you. And I would say because of that, LinkedIn is more and more becoming a place where true conversations happen. Whereas it used to be a place where everybody just broadcasted their career updates. So it just really changed as a platform. A couple of things I want to just kind of like go back to first of all, you mentioned, there's a lot of content out there on how to create LinkedIn content. And you mentioned like spacing out your lines. And I had to chuckle because after you said pitch slap, it reminded me. There's also a term for this form of content on LinkedIn. And it's called broetry, as in poetry by bros. So if you Google the term broetry, you'll find examples of this. And it, it cracks me up. I heard somebody else call it the dead broets society.
Kathleen (32:25)People call it that cause it is a lot of guys that do it. But not exclusively. The people that post this way on LinkedIn and some people take it to like seriously annoying extremes where it's like three words per line. Like I called her. Hard line break. She responded. Hard line break. You know, I, I don't think you need to go to quite to that level, but the, but the bottom line is the reason people write that way is, is twofold. One, it is aligned with the way we like to read, which is we do not like walls of text and two, it actually plays into LinkedIn's algorithm because LinkedIn rewards posts on which people dwell for longer. So like they stay looking at it for longer. And if you put a lot of line breaks in your post and you make it a really long post, it, people are forced to essentially dwell longer on the post. So it's just interesting to me, but I wanted to mention that because I absolutely love the term broetry. But, and then the other two things I was going to mention and maybe ask you to talk about. One is tagging other people and when you should do that, and two is hashtags.
Justin (33:32)Okay. So Broetry, I had not heard the term, but it's funny because I think that it, it stemmed from one of the early creators of this was Josh Fetcher of BAMF media, BAMF media, broetry, it all kind of plays together. You can see kind of where that all came from. But I, you know, it, it works and I like reading stuff like that, but I'm the same way. If, if I write in a way that tries to just separate my lines to make it easy, to read the three words per line thing I don't read. I personally, maybe I'm just different with, I also don't like when there's a ton of emojis, it looks like it was written by someone who's a professional copywriter. Not like, Hey, this was just an idea.
Kathleen (34:21)Yeah. Like on my personal approach to emojis. And that's a, I'm glad you brought that up because that is another thing to talk about. Like a, I do think emojis are fine. Even in the most professional settings, I think they can be used really well if used correctly. Like my whole thing is, is it adding value? Like sometimes I'll use it to call attention to a particular line in my post or like if I wanted to bullet point something, but LinkedIn doesn't allow me to do bullet points. I'll find an emoji to sub as a bullet. But yeah, there are some people who take it just to crazy extremes
Justin (34:53)And that, that goes back to you know, I try to have these personality traits that are my personality traits that I embody on LinkedIn. And I always try to think of if it's providing value in the word, the trait that I try to embody for myself is thoughtful. You know, it is me putting this out there thoughtful, or is it just trying to draw attention? And I don't want my content to work because I had some growth hack. I want it to work because I'm helping the people in my space.
Kathleen (35:25)Amen. There are a few people I follow who use that format and they do it in a way that just is so contrived feeling like I get so sick and tired of their posts. Cause I'm like, Oh, another one of these. And then there are people who do it and they follow that format, but they're like really sharing something that's interesting. And that makes me want to read it. And that's thoughtful. So couldn't, couldn't agree more. You and I are just like on the same page about all of this, I feel like we need to find something to disagree about. Do you have any controversial opinions on hashtags?
Justin (36:02)I don't do so I'll go to the previous question, which was tagging people in it. I hate to sound like a broken record here, but I try to be thought I, I'm not going to do massive tag ins. What I try to do with my content again, if we go back to looking in the mirror, I'm an agency owner. People don't care that much about what I have to say in my space and that's fine. Believe me. I don't lose sleep about it at night. I've, I'm very comfortable in my own skin. And I think it helped me a lot as a professional to understand that as an agency owner people, don't net, maybe they'll care a little bit about all my personal opinions, but I try to, because I run a podcast. And because I talk to these people all the time, I try to bring in things that other people said that I hear from other folks or other LinkedIn posts that I saw.
Justin (36:59)I talked about my 10 comments per day. Well, sometimes I'll write a comment and I'll be like, wow, that's a good post actually. And so then when I go to write that post, I thank that person who I commented on initially for inspiring that post. Then I get a comment there from them and maybe there was someone else who I thought that it might be interesting for. So I may tag them in the comments, but you'll see these giant bricks of 20 people who are tagged in a comment to try to drum up engagement. And again, I view that as counterintuitive for your personal brand. If you look like you're trying to hack the system to drive up engagement, people will recognize that, right. Kathleen saying, you see it, you, you feel it, you know, it, you don't think positively on the people who are doing that. If you don't think negatively, if you're not like, wow, this person is really out here to help me. Right?
Kathleen (37:53)No, the only time I like it is when somebody is like, Hey guys, I I've heard that LinkedIn really rewards posts that like are in this format. So here we go, space, I'm going to test it at space. What do you think? Like when they just say like, this is what I'm doing and here's why I like that. That's cool with me.
Justin (38:13)So I think, you know, when it comes to tagging people in, if you're being thoughtful about it, I think people appreciate it. I know almost every time that I tag someone in and say that they've inspired my posts, they don't even know that I'm about to do it. And they're like, wow. You know, I I did one yesterday. I, I think this woman who had put out a post and show her, I, you know, I have a note sheet that I keep of all the things that I may want to write about. And she was one of them and it was a post that she released two weeks ago. And then I say, two weeks later, Hey, you know, I was thinking about this post that Kathleen wrote to two weeks ago. I think her name was also Kathleen or Catherine. And you know, it just inspired me to, to write this and she's like, wow, you remembered my post. It's like, I spent time on that. You cared enough to remember it and bring it back up and talk about it again. That means a lot to me. I have now left a positive impression on that person. So be thoughtful care, you know, when, when you're writing something, don't just write it to try to drum up engagement, but really try to help the people in your space. And people will recognize it.
Kathleen (39:25)And to go back to what we started with to bring this full circle, if you did interview somebody for your podcast, then you absolutely should tag them in your post, both so that they see it. And also when you tag them, their followers will see it. And I think people that's of interest, like you've just interviewed them, they're sharing their knowledge. That's a great way to get that knowledge out in front of a bigger audience.
Justin (39:46)Exactly. Yeah. I mean, you know, just using real world situations makes what's suppose so much easier. And if we go all the way back to, you know, we went down this, this pathway of talking about LinkedIn, but if we go back to the podcast, I mean the podcast, it just gave me a voice on LinkedIn. And then the content that you get out of it is more important than the actual podcast itself. Because if you're looking to have, you know, 5,000 downloads per episode, well, I definitely recommend you don't make a podcast and B2B it. It's just going to be really hard. I'm not saying it's not possible. And there aren't podcasts out there that do extremely well. But I think the people who do well with their podcasts understand that number of downloads per episode and inbound traffic directly from someone saying, Hey, I listened to your episode and it made me want to work with you is probably way down the ladder in terms of the reasons that people are doing it.
Justin (40:51)I'd say what you said, which is relationships with those people in your space. And then the content and the voice that he gives you in your space to be able to go out and talk and say, look, I I've interviewed me personally since the pandemic. I think I've interviewed 75 heads of marketing. I'd argue that I can go toe to toe with anybody in the world in terms of how many heads of marketing and B2B technology that they've talked to since the pandemic hit. I would, I don't think there are many people who have heard from as many people as I had and that's powerful.
Kathleen (41:25)Well, and I think there's a fundamental flaw in the assumption that you need to have a lot of downloads, which is that, as you say, in B2B tech, for example, or in B2B anything, oftentimes our audiences just aren't that large to begin with. Like if, if you're really being focused, like if you want to reach a very specific audience, that audience may not be that big, but if you're getting the, call it 300, people that are in your super, super focused niche, if those 300 people are listening, that's the most highly qualified audience you could get. That's the best audience. So who cares about the other 5,000? That 300 is the 300 you want, right? Like it's quality over quantity, in my opinion.
Justin (42:12)I mean, anybody out there who's listening. If, if you had the choice to have 5,000 random listeners or 200 executives in your space that listen to your podcast, I know what direction you're going to want to go. You want those executives to associate your podcast with thought leadership with the people who are spearheading the way and they'll listen. They want to hear what their colleagues are doing there. It seems like it's an infinite world out there, but there's only so many CMOs CEOs, heads of finance in specific industries. And if you created a niche podcast, you'll get the people in your space, listening and caring about what you're doing.
Kathleen (42:57)Yeah, absolutely. Alright. We could go on and on all day, but we're actually going to run out of time because we have so much to talk about. So we're going to shift gears here for a sec. I always ask my guests two questions. I'd love to know what your answers are. The first one is this podcast is all about inbound marketing. Is there a particular company or a specific individual that you think is really a great example of how to do inbound marketing right these days?
Justin (43:22)Yeah, for sure. So let's, I'd rather give, I think people, since we went down this LinkedIn path, I'd like to give people some profiles to check out that I think do what we talked about. A lot of that let's do. My favorite person is Justin Welsh. Justin Welsh combines the ability to have broetry, he's all text but is extremely thoughtful in what he puts out. And you can tell it's really who he is as an individual. He teeters more on sales. He was the VP of sales for a company that exploded. And now he spearheads his own consulting business for companies from zero to 50 million SaaS organizations. And he, he's amazing with the way that he speaks on LinkedIn. He talks about, he wants to post to be polarizing and he defines polarizing as the balance between intriguing and crazy. And so he teeters that line all the time and it drums up crazy engagement. So look up Justin Welsh and then two other people who I really look up to and I think that they do really well on their profiles and just being themselves are Kyle Lacy of Lessonly. You're I see you shaking your head, so I'm sure you know who he is.
Kathleen (44:42)I just interviewed him. He, I haven't published his episode yet, but that'll be coming up or by the time this airs, it will have been.
Justin (44:48)So if you're listening to this episode right now, after this, cue up the Kyle Lacy episode, because he will be better than that.
Kathleen (44:56)Totally different topic.
Justin (44:58)Totally different. He is fantastic. He comes from just a wealth of experience in the, in the tech space as a CMO awesome guy. I've had him on my podcast. I interact with him on LinkedIn regularly. And he is just, he's a guy that, you know, he's a tactician, he's doing, he's doing the job every day. And he balances, you know, Justin Welsh and me, Justin Brown are, you know, entrepreneurs and, or just self-employed. So we have the time to really promote our personal brand. You want to look at somebody who is doing it in terms of he's a CMO at a tech company, he's got a boss, but he's out there, a mate, jumping on your podcast, jumping on my podcast, putting out content all the time for both his personal brand and his company brand. He balances it extremely well, just a really talented, smart interesting person. So those two were the two that, that came to my mind that I thought might be good examples for the audience.
Kathleen (46:01)That's awesome. I love those examples. So keep an eye out for that Kyle Lacy interview. Maybe I need to interview Justin Welsh next so that I can make it the trifecta. But those were great answers. The other one I always get the question is how do you keep up? Like, there's so much changing all the time in the world of digital marketing. How do you personally keep yourself educated?
Justin (46:23)Yeah. So I have a few answers to this question. The first is I still try to read and that's not actually staying educated in current climate. And so when I read, I've tried to read books or reread books that are like pillars of sales and marketing. I don't have the time in it. And I think this is hard when people want to pick up something to read. They're like, what do I read? And for me, I like to read books that were pillars in sales and marketing because they age well. So examples of books that I've recently read I re-read spin selling and I re-read how to build a StoryBrand. Those are books that aren't going to age out. They're done on research. They're done as books that when they came out, they were, they were just, they changed the way that we do marketing.
Justin (47:23)So I wanted to start there because I think it's important that people still read. And I didn't want to give you the same cookie cutter answer of LinkedIn, like but, and I won't go to LinkedIn next. The next thing I'll go to is I recently joined a Slack community called rev genius. There are a couple out there. I know the revenue collective is a great one that Kyle Lacy's in and a lot of practitioners are in. I am not allowed to be in the revenue collective because you have to be, you can't be an agency owner. You have to actually be doing the job. So I had always had people on my podcast and I felt left out cause I want to join. I wanted to join the revenue collective. It's all these people that I find so interesting.
Justin (48:02)And I look up to and recently this new one came out, which was called rev genius. And I think in the last three to four months, and don't quote me on that, cause I might be wrong. They've gone from 15 to 5,000 members. It's a Slack channel. I'm a part of it. And I look and I love it. I, I'm talking right now about launching a podcast with them. And I get to interact very easily with all of these people who are out there doing great things. So I would say find communities of people that can help to educate you, especially in the world that we live in. Now it's so much harder to interact and engage with folks. It's why podcasts are on the rise. It's why so many people are going to LinkedIn, which would be my next recommendation. That's how I stay up to speed, having conversations with people in my space.
Kathleen (48:48)Well, I am a member of both the revenue collective and rev genius and would second that. It's a great recommendation and I'll put actually the links to both in the show notes in case people are interested in going and checking those out. So awesome recommendations, Justin. That is all the time we have. So if somebody is interested in learning more about you or motion or connecting with you online, what's the best way for them to do that?
Justin (49:14)Yeah, for sure. Just LinkedIn backslash Justin Brown motion. Awesome. Then my company is motion agency.io. I mean, you're, you're welcome to go fill out a form on there if you want it to work together. But you're just going to get me anyway. So you can just reach out to me on LinkedIn open to all connection requests. Like I said, happy to engage.
Kathleen (49:36)Awesome. All right. All of those links will be in the show notes. So head over there, if you'd like to connect with Justin or learn more about some of the resources or the people that he mentioned, and that is it for this week. So if you're listening as always, if you enjoyed this episode, please take a minute and head to Apple podcasts or the platform of your choice and leave the podcast or review preferably five stars. But if you don't think it deserves it, I get that too. And if you know somebody who's doing kick ass, inbound marketing work, tweet me at @workmommywork because I would love to make them my next guest. Thank you so much, Justin. This was a lot of fun.
Justin (50:12)All right. Thanks Kathleen. It was great to be on.