Inbound Success Podcast

Aug 17, 2020

ow did GeoFli help Onyx Maps almost double its website conversion rates?

This week on the Inbound Success podcast, GeoFli founder Kyle Pucko talks about the benefits of website personalization and shares examples of companies that have used geotargeted website content to significantly increase website conversion rates.

Check out the full episode to learn more about geotargeted website content and how implementing it on your own website can help improve conversion rates.

Resources from this episode:

• Connect with Kyle on LinkedIn
• Check out the GeoFli website

Transcript

Kathleen (00:01): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host Kathleen Booth. And this week, my guest is Kyle Pucko, who is the founder and CEO of GeoFli.com. Welcome Kyle.

Kyle (00:21): Thank you, Kathleen. Great to be here.

Kathleen (00:23): Yeah, I'm excited to have you here. Maybe you could start off by talking a little bit about your story, who you are, what GeoFli is and how you got to where you are today.

Kyle (00:32): Yeah, absolutely happy to do it. So like you said, my name is Kyle Pucko, founder GeoFli. We are based out here in Missoula, Montana, so big sky country for those who haven't made it out here. It's a beautiful place to visit even this time of year, which sounds a little funny to say. And so my story Kathleen really starts in marketing with higher education. So I spent almost a decade in higher education marketing. So colleges and universities. Worked at a small liberal arts school outside of Chicago and then made my way West to the university of Montana. And really during that time, you know, when we talk about inbound marketing and all the tactics that you've talked with your guests about over a hundred plus episodes not many of those existed when I started in, in higher ed.

Kyle (01:20): So it was a lot of traditional marketing. It was a lot of trade shows. It was a lot of sending packets and it was a lot of in person meetings and talking with students about just why they should go to this university. So, you know, fast forward and of course I'd be at these trade shows and I would see a lot of students holed in the corner looking at their phones, right? So the question became well where are these students spending a lot of time and attention? And I just started to really focus on, you know, if we are going to spend 10 hours a week marketing, where can we work? Can we have the best results? And so I, that, that transitioned into a more traditional marketing role into a, into a digital marketing role. And I was, at least according to LinkedIn, the first and only digital marketing manager at any university across the country.

Kyle (02:10): And I think this was in 2013. So really cut my teeth and, and learning things like Google ads, Facebook ads. And now, now we're getting into a lot of the topics that you cover with your guests. And then in 2015 you know, I started GeoFli and I, and I left the university full time to go full time entrepreneur. And what GeoFli does is it allows anybody to easily change and replace website content based on physical location. So somebody visiting a university website from California would see different content than somebody visiting that same website from New York. This was, this was a product at the university. We have students from all over the world visiting our homepage and getting the same one size fits all content. And so it was a problem. I looked for a solution, couldn't find it. And when I couldn't find it decided to do it myself.

Kathleen (03:04): Interesting. So, I mean, I think that the concept behind it makes total sense and I feel like that's the direction that the world of marketing is going generally is personalization and the ability to hyper personalize. You said you looked out there at the market and you couldn't find a solution. I would imagine when you think about building a solution for delivering personalized content on websites, it's not as simple as it may sound just because websites are all built so differently from each other. You know, there's different CMS's, different kinds of code behind them. Let's, maybe we can start just by talking about how GeoFli works. Like, does it work with every website?

Kyle (03:46): Yeah, so that's a, that's a really good question. And the first thing that, so I, I co founded the company with somebody that I worked with for five years at the university of Montana. He was the web manager there. And so he was really the, the, the technical side of building this out. And the first question we had to answer was is this even possible to do? And the way that we figure that out is we you know, we created this simple website and somebody would click on a link and a dot would appear on a map. And it would say, does this dot represent where you are located? And I think we posted on Facebook had a hundred people click on the link, had a hundred dots on a map and our accuracy was really great. So yep. There or somebody like, Oh, you're like a couple of miles off.

Kyle (04:32): So the way that GeoFIi works is we use IP address and then combine that information with latitude and longitude. So, you know, 99% of the time it will work really great. Somebody is using a VPN, that's going to be a little tricky. But you know, we've been able to mitigate those problems, you know, anytime they've, they've come up. And then, you know, from a technical side early on, like any like any early startup our product was clunky. It was difficult to use our, our value proposition was that anybody could do this, but that promise wasn't resonating when somebody would log in. So we ended up doing a lot of the work for our clients very early on. Today, GeoFli allows anyone regardless of technical background to log in. So there's a, a dashboard. You simply add your URL, select the element that you want to change, and then you can make that change depending on what region you want to do it for. And your question about kind of, does this work on any website? It does. It works on Wix. It works on WordPress. It works on custom content management systems. So as long as you can add the GeoFli script onto the back end of your website, GeoFli can personalize your site.

Kathleen (05:49): That's pretty cool. So, so the notion of personalization, I think it can sound really appealing to a lot of businesses. When you think about who is this right for how do you, how do you talk about that?

Kyle (06:04): Well, you know, I, I sort of alluded to our, my experience in higher ed and it might help to think about where the idea to do this sort of originated from, and it, and it started with Google display advertising. I was a counselor based here in Missoula working for the university of Montana. And occasionally I would get sent to college fairs on the East coast. So there was a college fair in Boston. Well, I was also managing the digital marketing. So, you know, in between traveling to Boston, I was setting up Google display ads and Facebook ads and purchasing keywords on search. So I launched a display campaign and I did a simple 50, 50 split, simple AB test. And I targeted the Boston area. So a 50 mile radius of any student in Boston that had any interest in Montana.

Kyle (06:54): They, there were retargeting audiences. There were interest based audiences, demographic based audiences, high school, students and parents. So one of the ads read, learn more about why UM is right for you and the other ad read Montana visits Boston meetup, and that's the button. The call to action is meetup. So the click through rate for the learn more kind of the generic message to New Englanders was 0.18% click through rate. The click through rate when I used personalized language was 0.3, 3%. So almost double click through rates still low and that's to be expected on display ads, but that, that happened before any idea or any code was written for GeoFli. So it, it became really clear that when people hear their local, their local region, or when it's personalized in some way based on location, there's there was a result at least in display ads.

Kyle (07:53): And so if you're out there and you're thinking, you know, all of my customers are exactly the same wherever they're located, then GeoFli probably isn't a great option for you. Personalization, you know, might be not the best use of your time. Most people though will, will say that, you know, they're when they start breaking down their personas, I'm sure there's demographic personas. You know, we're going to communicate. We want to communicate differently to 18 year olds than we do to 28 year olds. The same is true for location. If you have customers all over they're going to behave very differently. I mean, I think about an auto dealer that is based sort of on the outskirts of a city. You know, you may even want to communicate differently to folks that are living in a dense metropolitan area versus somebody that's visiting your dealership from a more rural or the outskirts of the city.

Kyle (08:44): You know, they might be interested in more compact cars if they have to parallel park every day, versus if they're coming in from out of town or from, they might be able look at the full size or the, or the SUV. So that's just one example. And I'm sure if you're listening, you can think about many more, but colleges is where we started, but today we work in e-commerce, we work in tourism, you know, if you were in Missoula. So it's a, we like to say, Montana is not on the way to anything. And so if you are looking to travel to Montana, you might be thinking, well, it's really hard to get to, you know, instead maybe if somebody from, where are you based out of Kathleen?

Kathleen (09:27): In Maryland.

Kyle (09:28): In Maryland? So Maryland to Montana is going to be a tough trip, but maybe if somebody from Maryland visits, you know, destination Montana or visit Montana, there could be a quick message that says something like, Hey, we're actually not that difficult to get to. Like, check it out. There's this direct flight from Chicago. If you can get to Chicago, you can get to Missoula. So just meeting people where they're at and you know, maybe it's a road trip for people from Washington state. Hey, have you ever thought about a road trip to Montana? So if you saw that message in Maryland, you'd be like, no, I have not thought of a road trip.

Kathleen (10:02): Well, I can totally see it too with like weather related content. Like if you're trying to say beat the heat and somebody's not in someplace that's hot or, you know, things along those lines, I could see a lot of applications for that. Not only in tourism, but in, you know, any companies that sell products that have to do with climactic changes. There, there's a whole host of things I think that you could use it for.

Kyle (10:31): Totally, totally.

Kathleen (10:33): Now is this, you know, I think the other side of this is there's the possibility of who could use personalization, but I've run into this as a marketer. I think personalization sounds so great to a lot of people, but then they, and they might even get a tool that lets them do it, but then there's the actual execution of personalizing. And, and I wonder if you could speak to that a little bit, because I feel like, I feel like it's the kind of thing where you could put all of your time into simply creating personalized messages. Like you could, you could go crazy, but I don't know. I don't know the extent to which the value would be there. Like what's, what's the right way to approach your strategy for personalizing because there has to be an element of bang for your buck involved.

Kyle (11:22): Absolutely. and anybody in marketing has probably tested or downloaded a software that they quickly think to themselves. There are so many features in here that I will never, ever use. And they might've heard the analogy of, you know, you're, you're driving a Ferrari, like you never drive a Ferrari over 20 miles per hour because just need the fire to get to point a to point B, you don't need to race it. You don't need so with GeoFli, you know, we want it to be the best in the world at geo personalization, at changing content based on location. And so when we, when we do onboard new clients, you hit the nail on the head, Kathleen that they, they immediately get excited. Like I can change the footer link. I can change this. You know, I have 127 pages on my website. I can change every word on every page.

Kyle (12:12): We, we usually pull back the reigns if you don't love to do, but we do that early. And we say, let's focus on, we call it three, three, three. So let's focus on three pieces of content on your website that you, that you want to change. What we usually recommend is anything above the fold on the homepage is a good place to start. You know, we don't really need to look at in depth, like, like scroll depth charts to understand the most eyeballs are going to be on these few sections. And that can be, we can change your homepage hero image. We could change videos. So video is a great, is one that we usually go to and say, do you have different videos of maybe your sales team for regions? Or just like we talked about some of these examples before. So we picked three pieces of content on, on on your website.

Kyle (13:05): Then we pick the three regions that you want to personalize content for. So I'll use a university as an example, the university of Oregon, you know, when, when they started working with us we chose Oregon. So the local audience, we chose California because that was the, they had the most amount of students come into the university of Oregon from the most amount of, out of state students coming from the state of California. And then we chose an international country. So Japan. So students coming from Japan to the university of Oregon, what is their website experience like? And that was really the first, the first two threes. And then the third three is we, we picked two more pages. So you have three pages total. So maybe your homepage, your contact us page and your about us page are the, are the three personalized pages.

Kyle (13:51): And that's where we stop. We set you up with the analytics, we integrate directly with Google Analytics. So if you're using Google Analytics, you will GeoFli analytics will work just fine. And then we wait 30 days and we see what were the results. And then based on those results, we make additional changes. So that's really how we start with folks. And we're right there with you. I think that's one of the differences you mentioned. Yeah. You get this tool and then it sort of collects dust. Virtual dust, right. I'm doing air quotes. It collects virtual dust. Charges, your credit card. And you're like, Oh, I gotta cancel that. Like that, that made no sense for me. We really make an effort to make sure that GeoFli does have a positive impact on your website. And if it doesn't, which has happened, then we'll cancel. But most of the time the results show that you know, things like bounce rate decreases, time on site improves, and conversion rates, if you're tracking that or any event type conversion, improves as well. So that's our strategy.

Kathleen (14:52): I like the three, three, three approach because that really does make it manageable. Can you give me, like, walk me through some examples of, of where you've implemented this either for yourself or for a client and what the results have been?

Kyle (15:08): Certainly. So we worked when we first got started here with a company named Onyx Maps. They're hunting software. So stereotypically there there's some things that are stereotypical Montana. For example, the first Uber I ever took in Montana was like a three 50 diesel. Sometimes stereotypes do turn out to be true. So we're working with a hunting application company based here in Montana and hunting for those that aren't in the world of hunting. You know, it's very state specific. Somebody in South Dakota is going to get it. Most hunters in South Dakota, or at least on a percentage basis are gonna hunt for pheasants versus somebody in New York are going to hunt for like white tail deer. So it's very state specific Onyx maps wanted to use GeoFli to showcase and to surface different images based on where people were visiting from.

Kyle (16:01): If someone's visiting from Florida to get a hunting permit, they're going to be a little dismayed when they see a giant elk. They're like, well, I can't hunt that elk in Florida. Like that makes no sense for me. So they personalize imagery and then what they also did was personalize testimonials. And so wherever you were visiting the website from, and this was specific to a landing page, you would see a state based testimonial. So if I'm visiting from Texas, I'm going to see somebody else from Texas that has purchased the app, download the app and have had success with the application in Texas. And basically what the application does is it tells you where the public and private land that you can hunt on is where those boundaries are. And so we ran a really statistically significant test where we would drive people to a specific page using Google search.

Kyle (16:51): So, you know, all the, all the ads were set up like hunting applications, hunting permit. And what we found was before using GeoFli or any of the non GoeFli'd pages that we, that we sent them to. So the default page the conversion rate for app download was right around 3% with. GeoFli'd pages, it was 5% across the board. And so that might not sound like a huge lift, but, you know, at a percentage base, it's, it's tremendous. And when you're spending a lot of money on those paid search ads it really made a positive impact. And so that was a really simple way. I think we changed an image and a quote, and it probably took for each state, you know, maybe five minutes to set up in a, in a really clean way. And that had a tremendous impact on, on the business and on the effectiveness of those, of that advertising campaign.

Kathleen (17:44): That's really interesting. And I definitely would agree. From three to 5% is a big, it is a big shift. Have you ever seen situations where it hasn't worked? I'm curious and, and like why, why would it not?

Kyle (17:56): Yeah, good question. You know, typically what will happen is the analysts on the analytics side, it can be difficult to prove that, that GeoFli is working if you haven't set up a conversion. And we help people do that. For example, tourism might be, might be one. So we worked with an economic development company that wanted to showcase different tax advantages to people in state versus out of state. Well, we set this campaign up and we felt like it was really strong, but at the end of the year, you know, when, when we asked the question, well, what impact did GeoFIi have on total businesses? Kind of moving or moving the needle on getting businesses to move to this specific city. It was just, it was difficult to prove, you know, we could show an increase in time on site. We could show an increase in pages per session to GeoFli versus non GeoFli visitors.

Kyle (18:51): But it's hard to say, trust us, it's, you know, it's, it's having, it's having a positive impact on your, on your ultimate conversion. But for those really long tail conversions in digital marketing, and I'm sure your audience can, can attest that it can be difficult. And the same is true of higher ed, really that a sophomore visiting your website from California you know, and they see a personalized message and alumni in their area. It's hard to tie that back to because of GeoFli that student three years later attended the university, the university of Texas.

Kathleen (19:30): Yeah. it, I think that's a great point. So what can you talk me through? How do you need to set things up so that it is trackable? So that, cause I think this is a mistake. Marketers make a lot, they jump in, they do these things, but they haven't put in place those fundamental building blocks, either the analytics or setting up the tech correctly and they might get further down the road only to find out they can't prove what they think is true, which is so frustrating. Cause you, you know, you have data, you just don't have data. That's usable. So what does somebody need to know before they start a process like this?

Kyle (20:09): I would refer to a book and I forget the author, but it's titled How to Measure Anything. And it talks a lot about removing layers of uncertainty. And so when we start with a new client, whether, you know, regardless of the size of that client, we want to meet them right where they are from an analytics standpoint. So if we ask them, you know, what is your, how many page visitors does your website currently get? And they sort of scratch their head and I'm like, well, that's a really good question. Like that's where we start. Okay. Let's set up analytics so that we can figure out how many page visitors you actually get from these different regions. Like, does it make sense to personalize for Texas if you only get a hundred visitors a year or a month? And then, you know, we, we then look at what we call third column metric.

Kyle (20:53): The first column metric is always impressions. And that's just how many people visit your page. The second column metric is sort of how many people actually, well, this is more based on an ad side, but how many people will click on your advertising? And then the third metric is how many people take the action that you want them to take on your page? And that to me, Kathleen is really the key. If you can get a third column metric and the key is metric, not dozens of metrics like, Oh, we want to know how many people watch this video. We want to know how many people clicked on this phone number. We want let's split, let's focus on, does your one, does your homepage have one goal or one action that you want people to take? And then what we do is we, we set up a Google data studio report for them.

Kyle (21:34): So we will actually go in and build you a custom dashboard. And we can help you do this. You become the owner of this dashboard. We set up all of the GeoFli regions. So again, three, three, three, usually it's three regions. So maybe you're targeting California, Texas, and Japan. So we show all the traffic from California, Texas in Japan. And then that third column metric actually becomes the second column next to the location and visitors from Japan. What is their conversion rate visitors from Texas? What is their conversion rate? And that can be purchase if you're e-commerce. That can be forms, submissions, if you're B2B, or it could honestly be like time on site, if you're if you're, you know, if you just want people to spend longer on your website. So that's our third column metric becoming the second column. I know this is kind of difficult. Maybe I can send you our template to put in the show notes.

Kathleen (22:28): Yeah, no, that's, I mean, it sounds like you have a pretty good format though.

Kyle (22:32): Yeah. And then the last piece is all other content, excluding the regions that you're GeoFliing so that you can compare okay. For non-GeoFli'd regions, the conversion rate is 2%. For GeoFli'd regions, it's 2.5%. And then you have to ask yourself, does that make, is that a big enough lift for me to keep GeoFli and continue to grow GeoFli? Or do I want to just stay where I'm at or do I want to cancel? And usually it's much greater than 0.5% difference and we will help figure out like, okay, now, now that we know this is working for these regions, let's pick three more regions.

Kathleen (23:08): I want to go back for a second and talk about data integrity, because you touched on this at the beginning, but I just want to dig a little deeper. And you mentioned that you're able to target geographically based on IP address and then longitude and latitude. And IP address targeting is, is interesting to me because in some cases it can be very accurate. You know, you're coming through a company IP, and it's very clearly denoted who it is. But in other cases, you know, you have people using Amazon web services or, you know, some kind of an aggregator for an IP, whether they're working from home or, you know, traveling, et cetera. And then, and then there's the whole topic of VPN, which that's a whole different ball of wax, but like to what degree is the data really accurate?

Kyle (24:00): We, we say that, you know, GeoFli is 95% accurate at the city level. So if you're targeting Chicago, you're going to have 95% of visitors that visit your website between 95 and 99% of your visitors are going to see the Chicago content. The other 1%, if you're targeting Chicago. It's important to remember that that 1% that maybe their IP addresses pinging from Denver well, they're outside of your targeted area. So they're going to see your default website, the same website as it exists today. So, you know, the question is, is it better for 95% of visitors to see personalized web personalized content and 5% of visitors to just see your website as it exists today? Or is it better to have a hundred percent accuracy wherever everybody's sees your, just your default site? And we believe that it's a, it's a better experience if 95% of your visitors are getting from Chicago are getting a personalized experience.

Kyle (25:04): Even if 5% of them are sort of, you know, left out of the personalization party. We also think we're, we're kind of ahead of, you know, we're early in this and the technology continues to improve. The accuracy continues to improve. You know, we're, it's something that we're constantly looking to get better at. Even at 95% though, we do feel like we are the most accurate tool out there when it comes to geo personalizing. You know, you'll find this feature in tools like Optimizely, but it's sort of buried under their enterprise plan and you have to pay thousands of dollars more to get access to it. And even then it's sort of an afterthought for them. This is what we study. This is what we look at. We, you know, we look at it every day. So the data integrity piece, and then if you're targeting at the state level or even at the country level, you're actually is going to be of course much, much higher.

Kathleen (25:59): And is there any variation in terms of desktop versus mobile users and how that renders data?

Kyle (26:06): There is. Yeah, mobile is usually a hundred, closer to a hundred percent accurate. So, you know, we, we've added a feature where on desktop, you can, you've probably seen it before, allow, allow this website to use your location. If you add that prompt, then we are of course, a hundred percent accurate. Without that prompt, that's when it drops you closer to 95%. So you can opt into asking your website visitors if they want to do that. So that's an option that you have.

Kathleen (26:33): And then I guess there's the data integrity thing can, can work both directions, right? As you mentioned, you can have people who are in your targeted area, who don't your targeted content, because they're not recognized as being there, but how often do you have cases where somebody is not in your targeted area or they might have, for example, I might be from Maryland, but I happen to be on a work trip in Los Angeles. I go to a website. It, it recognizes me as being from Los Angeles. It might even cookie me and then think every single time I come that I'm from Los Angeles. Like, how do you deal with that? Or do you?

Kyle (27:13): Totally. We, we call that the airplane problem, you know, and somebody lands at a different location. Of course their IP addresses is going to change. We've run into that the most in New York city when people are trying to target boroughs. So they, they treat Brooklyn as a city and they treat Manhattan as a city as they should. But those two are separate by a river. And so somebody in Brooklyn will see occasionally Manhattan content and, you know, that's, that's one of the issues that we run into is, is New York city being those boroughs, being so close together. But outside of that, you know, if somebody really, if that's if that's a real concern for folks and they, and maybe that surfaces, then we really recommend they prompt for location. Users have gotten used to it. My guess is that listeners out there have seen GeoFli'd content.

Kyle (28:01): They just don't quite know it. That's the other piece is we want GeoFli to feel like we don't want it to be an interruption, an intrusion, a popup, a GeoFli exists on your site. It's elegant. And so we want that experience. You know, we don't love asking people for location prompts because it's another click or it's just sort of an intrusion and it kind of goes against our vision right now while the technology is still advancing. And the IP address targeting is still, you know, we're still honing that in to be a hundred percent accurate. We would recommend you use the location prompt and just avoid that.

Kathleen (28:39): And then I guess one of my last questions before we shift gears is really with things like GDPR. I imagine that could be a plus and a minus. It could be a plus for you because you could theoretically use GeoFli to determine who is in a GDPR covered region. And then, and from that, maybe, you know how you need to treat them on the website. But I also imagine that on the flip side, if you're using it on your site, you're collecting geographic location based information, like is that somehow subjected to GDPR requirements? Like talk to me a little bit about GDPR and GeoFli.

Kyle (29:19): Yeah. GDPR and GeoFli. When, when every company in the world was sending the GDPR emails to us we, you know, we were, we were in that bandwagon also, or that, that boat also. We thought, okay, what, what impact is this going to have? Because it was so specific to location. And, you know, we sort of default to if you, if you have a GDPR notification and you're running and you're collecting cookies and you're collecting data on your website, visitors, like you, you just need to have it. We don't police our clients to make sure our customers to make sure that they do have it. You know, that liability is on them to make sure they do that. In our case though, you know, we've had some folks ask you. Yeah. So I could show this to, so I could surface GDPR to these countries and not these? And we don't love those conversations. We, we don't recommend people do that.

Kathleen (30:15): Can I ask about that? Because I would think there would be people who'd say couldn't I use GeoFli to determine with whom I needed to make sure I was being GDPR compliant.

Kyle (30:26): You certainly could. And, and you're spot on that people have inquired about that. And we usually deflect those and say, yeah, just, that's not what this tool is designed to do. Yeah.

Kathleen (30:37): Yeah. I don't blame you. All right. Well, switching gears there's two questions that I always ask everybody who comes on. The first being, we talk a lot about inbound marketing on the podcast. Is there a particular company or individual you think is really doing it right these days?

Kyle (30:56): Yeah, I, in, in preparation for this for this question, I was thinking, you know, I always like, as most marketers do to think about what marketing has worked on them and like gotten me to conversion or purchase. And it's funny, I recently purchased a GoPro. I never thought I would say that, but GoPro, that, that was my company that I came up with. I had been following along with GoPro for, Oh, probably the better part of seven years. Just kind of following them on Facebook and I'm looking at their images because I always thought they were really cool, but I always thought to myself, like, I, I don't do really cool things like that. I have no need for GoPro, but they've really done a good job of expanding their customer base and showing just how GoPro can be used in a day to day.

Kyle (31:40): And you know, us as a, as a marketing team and as a software company, I think there's a lot of use cases for it. We use it as a second camera when we're doing any sort of interviews or just capturing moments around the office. And so GoPro, you know, they are masters at sort of the jab jab, right hook strategy from Gary Vaynerchuk, which is like, we're going to show you seven awesome images of in that, you know, none, none of them are going to have a call to action. Oh. And then we're going to take 50 bucks off of our recent GoPro hero eight. So, so that's what ended up getting me and maybe it had something to do with quarantine and just like a retail therapy, but I purchased a GoPro recently, so well done GoPro.

Kathleen (32:23): Nice. All right. That's a good one. Second question, everybody in marketing seems to always complain that things change so quickly and it's really hard to keep up and, you know, there's so much information to absorb. So how do you personally stay educated and up to date on, in the world of digital marketing?

Kyle (32:42): Well, you mean aside from this podcast, I definitely, that's a really good question cause it does change so fast. And if you tried to keep up with everything you would, you could spend 40 hours a week just keeping up whatever with everything. Our team has a meeting every Friday, we call it just a strategy meeting where we actually bring something to the table that each of us has learned. So, you know, this week I'm really excited to talk about like Hulu's new self-serve ad platform which is a big one. So maybe we're not going to go in and design and build an ad campaign today. But just knowing that, Hey, they've opened this up to small businesses or maybe it's a beta version. I actually don't know, but I saw some headlines on it on SearchEngineJournal.com. And that's just something that I want to talk about.

Kyle (33:27): Is it something that we could use? Do we have some video footage we could put on there and test this? So you know, becoming a thought leader as you alluded to is so huge in, in the marketing space and, and it's funny because you don't actually need to spend that much time to know more than 99% of marketers into what's going on. It seems like that bar is kind of low. So I bet if we pulled a hundred marketers, maybe five of them would know that Hulu came out with a new ads self-serve platform. But so it allows you to just be keep on that cutting edge and reduce that crappy click through rate syndrome that can happen with, are you guys do using Facebook, newsfeed ads are pretty powerful. Like they're, you know, that's, that's been fatigued, so you have to,

Kathleen (34:15): Yeah. I love the idea of having a meeting with your team and everybody having to bring something to the table. I think the best marketers I know are the ones who are just insatiably hungry to learn and, you know, make institutionalizing that as part of the process is a really smart way to go. Yeah. So, great idea. So if somebody wants to learn more about the stuff you're working on or connect with you online, what's the best way for them to do that?

Kyle (34:41): Yeah. GeoFli.com, and then Kyle Pucko, you can find me on LinkedIn. So I don't, I don't know if there's too many other Kyle Puckos out there. Shoot me a message. Happy to, happy to get in touch.

Kathleen (34:57): Awesome. I will put those links in the show notes. So head to the show notes, if you want to connect with Kyle or learn more about GeoFli and of course, if you're listening and you liked this episode, please take a minute to head to Apple podcasts and leave a five star review. It makes a huge difference. And of course, if you know someone who is doing kick ass, inbound marketing work, tweet me at @workmommywork because I would love to make them my next interview. Thanks so much, Kyle. This was a lot of fun.