Feb 11, 2019
How can you reduce your Facebook ads cost per click by 90% and increase lead conversion rates?
This week onThe Inbound Success Podcast I spoke with Moby Siddique of RedPandas Digital, a Sydney, Australia-based inbound marketing agency and HubSpot partner, about some innovative Facebook ads approaches he's taken that have dramatically improved his return on ad spend (ROAS).
Some of Moby's most successful Facebook ads campaigns actually connect Facebook users to a Facebook Messenger bot, which can then offer them discount codes or other offers and opportunities for conversion. The cost per click on these campaigns is 10x lower than it is for others, and the conversion rates average 30% or more.
This week's episode of The Inbound Success Podcast is brought to you by our sponsor, IMPACT Live, the most immersive and high energy learning experience for marketers and business leaders. IMPACT Live takes place August 6-7, 2019 in Hartford Connecticut and is headlined by Marcus Sheridan along with keynote speakers including world-renowned Facebook marketing expert Mari Smith and Drift CEO and Co-Founder David Cancel.
Inbound Success Podcast listeners can save 10% off the price of tickets with the code "SUCCESS".
Some highlights from my conversation with Moby include:
Resources from this episode:
Listen to the podcast to learn exactly how Moby structures his Facebook ads campaigns, how they're connected to Facebook Messenger, how he's building his messenger bots and more.
Moby Siddique (Guest): Thank you, Kathleen. It's great to be here.
Moby and Kathleen recording this episode
Kathleen: Yeah, you know, I occasionally have guests that I get particularly excited to interview because I always ask people at the end of my podcast who's doing inbound marketing really well. And it is the people that get mentioned in the answers to those questions that I then think immediately, "I need to interview that person."
Your name has come up a few times both in the podcast as well as with people that I am friends or colleagues with. I've heard your name so many times. People say, "You have to interview Moby," and was finally like "Alright. I'm just gonna reach out to him and see if he's game." So I'm super excited that you're here today.
Moby: Oh no, pressure. All good, all good. It's great to be here, Kathleen.
Kathleen: And not only are you here today, you're actually here tomorrow because you are across the world in the next day. It is Wednesday my time and it is Thursday your time. Even better, I think you're the guest I've had from the furthest away, so you get the badge for that.
Moby: Sweet, just don't interview anyone from New Zealand. No, I'm kidding!
Kathleen: There you go.
Moby: We have a good rivalry with them.
Kathleen: Tell my listeners a little bit more about yourself and your company and where you're from. Paint the picture for us.
Moby: Yeah, awesome. I'll try to say something a little bit different from, 'cause at the end of the day inbound marketing agencies, how different are we really? We all try to achieve the same problem.
Three, four years ago I was working at an agency. I didn't like how it was being done and I thought, "Hey I can do this."
Then fast forward a year or two I ate some humble pie. I realized it's a lot harder than you think it is, and that was actually a really good awakening for us because it's like, "Okay cool. We really have to get back to inbound marketing."
At the end of the day marketing is all about trust. We built our agency on a lot of trust and on giving away a lot of information. That's really where my speaking passion came from, as well, so I do a little bit of speaking. I just started breaking the international, I guess got my first paid international gig this year which is cool. Didn't have to do them for free anymore.
Moby: Thank you, thank you. That was really cool. But yeah, so I guess my day job is essentially Head Strategy Panda at Redpandas Digital. Clients come in and our job is to translate their offline problems into digital solutions. We're a HubSpot partner, as well, and yeah. I guess we do the best we can.
Kathleen: Based in what city?
Moby: Sydney, Australia.
Kathleen: Alright, excellent. I've never been to Australia. So if you need a speaker at your next HUG and you can pay travel fees, you know who to call.
Moby: Yeah, awesome.
Kathleen: That would be a nice world that we would live in if the HUGs would pay travel fees transatlantically or transpacifically, I guess in this case.
Moby: Oh yeah, we also run Sydney HUG, too, by the way. I know you guys.
Kathleen: Yeah, so I have heard so much about you guys and you must be doing inbound well because you seem to be one of the more well liked agency owners within the community of agency owners. The nice things about the HubSpot community, at least in my experience, is it's not super competitive. But still to be the most well liked guy within a group of guys and girls who are about likeability and trust is a high honor.
I'd love to know some of what you're working on with your clients and what you're doing to find success with them.
Moby: Yeah, really at the end of the day the inbound playbook has been so, I guess, just cookie cutter. And that's been fine for a number of years.
It depends on what type of client we have. Often when we have a client for the very first time, there's some very basic fundamentals that are missing. Sure, they're not really looking at personas and their messaging. Even their value proposition, so in terms of what makes them different? You only really know that once you know your personas, know what they care about. You have a whole augmented package of value so you can actually say, "Yeah, this is our value proposition. This is where we stand in the market."
We do these two or three things very, very well for you. Often in the start, clients are ... When we meet clients that have maybe grown organically that had a lot of referrals, but now they've kind of hit a plateau. For them it's actually quite easy.
But then you have clients on the other spectrum who've been doing things for a while or clients we've been working with for a long time, and then we've just gotta think about at a channel level, what do we do to get them to that authority level?
On one side it's like how do we actually ... What are our basics? What do we actually stand for? And then let's think about the type of content and videos we need.
Usually they don't have that stuff, it's very simple. But on the other side, once they're actually quite mature, how do we take them to a real authority level? 'Cause it's easy to say that at any level, but it's really the brands that are a little bit mature and have the ability to do things like podcast, to do things like webinars. Things that are hard.
So really it really is that. And then of course you have things that are a little bit kind of left field. So trying to combine different technologies together.
I know you guys do a lot of bot marketing on your side. We do a lot of that, as well, but one thing that very few people, particularly in our market, are doing anyway is using Facebook ads to go to bots and then use bots as forms and for filling their funnel that way. As opposed to taking them, let's take them to a landing page that takes three seconds to load and then take them to something else and then pay for another ad to keep them in the funnel.
So always just trying to shorten the funnel. I don't know if that answers your question but I guess it depends on where they are in their life cycle, and we can act accordingly.
Kathleen: Yeah, that's interesting that you brought up working with clients on their value proposition because I don't think that there's many inbound marketing agencies particularly that do that. Part of that is symptomatic of this cookie cutter approach that HubSpot espoused for so many years of attract, convert, close, delight. Their methodology was the playbook and it didn't have a piece that was about positioning or value proposition or differentiation.
I know we've run into the same thing where we'll have clients come to us and if we just ran the traditional inbound playbook, we'd probably be very successful at generating leads for them. And this has even happened, but they would be the wrong kind of leads.
We actually got into doing messaging for clients for the same reason because if you wanna deliver the right kinds of leads, you really have to understand not only the personas but how to message to those personas so that it resonates with the right people. Not just any person. So that's so important.
Kathleen: I'm so intrigued by what you just said about Facebook ads. I would love to dive a little deeper into that. You talked about using Facebook ads to drive people to a bot. Tell me more.
Moby: Yeah, so that's ... And there's very clever ways to do it now and the thing about Facebook is almost any channel, but very specifically on Facebook, you've gotta do it before they change and they make it hard for you.
All marketers, I'm sure you've had this conversation with others, all marketers we lament the fact how Facebook at first is like, "Hey, use Facebook for your brand." This is seven, eight years ago. Then people start putting their logo on bus boards - Literally advertising for Facebook on TV and billboards and whatever - and they're like, "Oh we're gonna take that away from you now."
I guess anything we talk about, if you're listening to this a year later, it might not even be around anymore. You have to be very fast.
To that point really quickly, I know with subscriptions, so with Facebook you can treat it like a form of email blasting and they call them chat blasting, bot blasting or whatever. Where once you get people, I guess, subscribed to your messenger, you can blast them with messages like gifs and videos and really cool stuff.
At the moment I think they have open rate, I don't ... This might be a month or two old now, but I think their open rates are 90% plus.
Marketers haven't ruined Messenger messages yet, or Facebook Messenger yet. So if you send them one, they're more likely to open it. It's very, very close to text messaging and a lot of users don't really differentiate between text ... The way they react to text messages or Messenger messages because it's so ubiquitous. We're just personal messaging.
That's one thing to keep in mind. But in terms of what Facebook is doing with that technology, they are looking at tightening what you can do. So that's definitely one thing to keep in mind.
Just to give a quick example, because I know if you kind of talk in theory, people really don't get what I'm talking about. But there's an example we're running at the moment with a bunch of restaurants.
How that works is it's a nice image of a pavlova or something. It's targeted right, which is a separate discussion. Essentially all it says is, I think "In 10 words or less, describe the first thing that comes to your mind."
Obviously the image is good. It's not on an iPhone, it's shot with an SLR.
As soon as a person types, I don't know, "scrumptious" or "delicious" or whatever it is, it takes their Messenger opens ... Sorry their Facebook Messenger opens and they get an automated message that says, "We're really glad you like what you see. There is a coupon code available. Simply click on discount or type the word 'discount' and you'll get that coupon code."
Then they type that and they can redeem this code. Then they can save it or whatever. Then after that it actually, it's almost like a mini, it's almost like a micro site within Messenger. You can almost build full scale websites in Messenger now.
After that, let's go back to this example. I've typed in "discount," awesome. I may use that discount, I may not, but as a marketer if I've done my job right I'll probably remind this person to use it again.
Then they'll almost get a "while you wait," or "before you come in, check out our menu."
Then you get the cards, like the carousels, and then you can actually swipe and you can see what else ...
Kathleen: In Messenger?
Moby: In Messenger. Yeah?
Kathleen: Okay, I have a million questions that I wanna ask you before we get too much further. The first being, when you talk about Facebook Messenger, let's walk through this from the standpoint of the actual user experience.
So I'm a person and I'm on my Facebook. I could be on my mobile phone, I could be on my desktop, wherever I am. Where do I first come across this? What is my first touch point with this experience?
Moby: Yeah, good point actually. You may ... In many, many ways, but one example.
Say in this example that I mentioned, it could be an ad. It might be an ad in your newsfeed. You're scrolling. It could be carousel ad, it could be a newsfeed ad, video ad, doesn't really matter. Any format.
You're scrolling, we targeted you because you're a particular demographic, you live in a certain radius within say that restaurant and you see this image.
What normally happens is, so many things can happen. Either you can just have the image and just leave it there. But the thing is we want a call to action, right? We don't want to just friend zone our people all the time.
Not that boosting content on Facebook is bad. When people first get into Facebook advertising, they just boost posts. Not that it's bad, and it should be part of your mix, it needs to be, but you can't only do that because where are they gonna go? Are they gonna go to your website? Are you gonna give them the link? What are you going to do?
So with Facebook, you can send people to destinations. For those of you, I'm sure your listeners know this already, but for those you don't you can send them either to a landing page and you can just send them to a Messenger conversation.
Kathleen: So I see the ad, in this case the picture of the pavlova that you talked about, and the ad is coming from the actual Facebook page of the company or the restaurant in this case.
Kathleen: I see that ad. In this case it's telling me to click on something to say what words I would use to describe it. Is there a button on it and the button then opens up Messenger?
Moby: Yeah, good question. So this is where, when you said what are some hacks and stuff, this is where my mind went to right away. It is a little bit of an advanced tactic that I'm talking about, and not many advertisers are using it.
To break it right down, your first step, say you wanna give this a go, would probably be just to try to run an ad to Messenger. Then you click on yep, open conversation and then it opens the user's Messenger. It opens the brand's Messenger. Obviously that relies on a human going there and interacting with the person.
Moby: That's normally the first thing.
Kathleen: A human on the brand's side, you mean?
Moby: A human on the brand's side, yeah.
Moby: The next sort of, I guess, evolve from that would be to send someone to ... There's still a button. There's still absolutely a button. You click on the button to start a conversation and then that goes into Messenger and then you use MobileMonkey, which is the tool we can talk about a little bit later. You can use a whole bunch of tools out there that are tools that will help you build a Messenger bot.
Moby: And you know, if someone says yes give them this, if they say no give them that and they can design the flow.
The example I gave is actually a level even above that in terms of advancement, if I can call it that. How that works is you just put in a word in the post. I only know of one other person who's doing this who is a friend of mine. That's why I stole the idea and I started doing it with our clients. But I haven't seen this anywhere else.
If we understand that logic, currently cool most people understand I can click on a button in Messenger and it will take me to a Messenger conversation. But what you can now do is you can actually ask them to comment.
Kathleen: Comment on the post itself.
Moby: Yes, comment on the post itself. And that opens up ... We have the ability now ... It is a little bit advanced but know that it is possible that if you comment, that'll do the same thing. That'll trigger the bot to open. You don't have to click on a button.
Now, this is great and I probably didn't even mention why you'd want to do this. There's a couple of reasons.
Firstly, one of the, as we can talk about a little bit later, one of the things that determines how much you pay in Facebook ads is your quality score or relevancy score, sorry.
Quality score is an AdWords term, relevancy score is the Facebook one. How they determine that is a number of things like are you getting engagements? Are people liking it? But one of the biggest factors, to cut it short, one of the biggest factors is comments, as well.
So if you put out an ad and you're going to garner a lot of comments, Facebook is gonna say, this isn't salesy, this is facilitating conversation and momentum. This is what we want. This is what we like. I'm gonna make your cost low advertiser.
So that's one of the biggest things that's done, Kathleen. Sure the results have been good, but one of the first things that impressed me before the results even started rolling in were the costs per click because it took me back to yesteryear.
I remember when we started doing Facebook ads, when I started doing Facebook ads, they were 20 cents, 15 cents, they were so low, and I saw those numbers again.
I'm like, "Oh my God. How are we getting these numbers?" It's because Facebook sees the comments. We're driving the comments, obviously because we're incentivizing the comments. We're saying comment on this and you can get a coupon code. So you have to offer them something.
You don't have to depending on what you're showing them, but it's nice to offer them something. That drove down our scores.
The next thought that I had when I was impressed by that was, "Oh crap. Facebook is going to stop this soon." You know what I mean? They're not gonna let us get away with this for too much longer, because they weren't.
If the average of cost per click is a lot higher, depending on what industry a dollar or 80 cents or two dollars, three dollars, even five dollars we've seen it in some industries now, they're not gonna let us get away with this loophole for too much longer.
Yeah, I guess that's the difference in the example I said as opposed to a button which is very easy to do. The comment triggers the Messenger app to open up or the Messenger interface to open up and then you can have a bot have an automated conversation with that person.
Kathleen: And is that functionality native to Facebook or are you using some kind of a third party tool to bridge the gap between the comment and opening Messenger?
Moby: Yeah, so the last part, that more advanced example, we are using some more advanced third party tools.
Kathleen: Can you say which one?
Moby: Actually I don't know because I am not the technical guy. I'm just the talker strategy guy and then I have other people do that stuff. But I can find out with our team and see if there's anything we can share.
Kathleen: Yeah, if you can share it, send it to me after we talk and I'll put it in the show notes. So there's a good reason to go visit the show notes. This is the "I don't know if the answer will be there or not right now, but I'm gonna try."
Moby: Yeah, at bare minimum, at bare minimum, we'll share some screenshots in terms of what this flow looks like. It's just so new. There's no actual tools that do these out of the box. You may have to use a tool and then get a code or do stuff on top.
But I don't want that to scare people or turn people off. The fact is that if you're not even running Messenger ads to send to a bot, that's what you should be worried about.
Kathleen: Right, right, right.
Moby: That should be your premier concern. It may not even be worth your time and investment to develop the stuff that I'm talking about. I think it will be, but I want people to prove that to themselves.
Kathleen: Yeah, and by the time this airs, Facebook may have already shut this functionality down. You do never know, especially given all the drama with Facebook these days.
Moby: That's right.
Kathleen: So somebody comments, that triggers Messenger to open, and then they begin interacting with the bot. And you're using Larry Kim's MobileMonkey, you said?
Moby: Yeah, for most cases, with the coupon, with this example that we mentioned for the comments to Messenger, no.
But for 95% of the cases, we do use MobileMonkey because I don't think MobileMonkey can do what we wanna do from a comments to Messenger point of view. It may, by the time this airs that may change, as well. But we like Mobile ... If I'm honest with you, because I'm a little bit, do you have the word "stingy" in the States, which means you don't like to spend money?
Kathleen: Yes we do. Yeah.
Moby: Stingy, I got MobileMonkey purely because they had an Appsumo lifetime code. That's why I jumped on it in the start. We went down that sort of path and it's good, it's easy.
It's very easy to build and speaking about trust, Larry Kim comes from obviously founder of WordStream. I knew whatever this guy touches he's going to invest time and money and get it right. It's a very good first start for people looking to get into bots.
And mind you with mobile Messenger you don't just use it for what I'm saying for ad context. You can use it just as your bots on your Facebook page. It's not new anymore but people also take their Facebook messenger and they install it on their website as well. The benefits of that are reducing over time as Facebook is gonna start restricting what you do with it. But you can still do that sort of stuff.
Kathleen: Yeah, Larry Kim is very passionate about what he's doing with MobileMonkey. He did a webinar for us last spring and we got, at that point obviously the product wasn't as far along as it is now, but I just love his passion for what he does. I would agree with you. If you're gonna place your bets on a great platform to build this on, that's a good bet 'cause he's done this kind of thing before and he's really smart.
Kathleen: Alright. So somebody clicks on this, they go to Messenger, the bot appears. What kind of a bot flow ... You talked about offering a coupon. Is this a short interaction where they get the coupon and then they're done? Are you using this to then continue to nurture these folks over time?
Moby: Initially, and it depends on the context as well, like B2C examples are going to be very different to B2B examples in an example of a restaurant. It is a short interaction because people just want what they want.
If the hook was a coupon code, for example, then cool let's make it easy. Let's make it automated, let's give it to them. The system will generate it, they'll get a screenshot, they can do whatever they want with it. We can track that, as well. Cool.
But then after that, the beauty of using Messenger or Facebook Messenger bots or whatever, is they're in your Messenger now. So they're just like another friend, the brand is just like another friend.
You know how we all have friends on Messenger and then they're in your ... Once you connect with them, they're there. They're on the left hand side or on the mobile they're wherever, and you can message them anytime.
That's the same thing. It's kind of like permission marketing in a way, 'cause now that they're in you can then chat blast. Yeah, you can chat blast them.
You can actually send them almost little mini coms, it's like mini newsletters where you can send them. HubSpot does a lot of this over, I don't know, I find it'll be annoying because it's always the same things. It's like a gif or something, but you can send them gifs, you can send them images, you can send them video, you can send them special offers.
You can gently sometimes maybe nudge them to your website, and then at the same time you have to allow them to opt out. So if you want to stop receiving this from us, type "no," for example. Yeah.
One last thing I'll say before I forget. I think the beauty of this whole thing is, is a human can jump in at any time.
Just like bots on a website, chat bots on websites that aren't Facebook related, a human can jump in and take over anytime.
Someone's noticing a lot of interest or and you find this, even when bots are ... You won't find a perfect Facebook bot. You're just not gonna find it. We've had ones for four or five months now and even just yesterday there was a flow ... I was chatting to one of our account managers and some poor prospect who was chatting to the clients Facebook bot kept getting the same auto responder all the time. And they were just getting so frustrated. It was like six, seven things that they said and the bot just kept saying the same thing again and again. I'm like, "Oh my God, this poor person."
You can jump in and the thing is you're going to have to jump in - either because the bot makes a mistake which is probably our mistake because we probably didn't think about our flow - or you notice someone's very, very interested like that person who bothered to message five, six times isn't just doing it for the fun of it.
They're interested, so let a human jump in and take over, as well. So sorry, side note but I think that's important to mention for people thinking about doing it this way are hesitant about doing this sort of stuff.
Kathleen: Yeah, this is something I'm really interested in because I am on the receiving end of some of these. I do get Larry Kim's Facebook messages, I get Growth Bot from HubSpot, I get a couple of different things.
You definitely see a wide variety of approaches that organizations take when they Facebook Message people, and my feeling about it has been that this is like a tightrope that you have to walk. It's an incredible opportunity but you also have to really be careful because until now, until very recently Facebook Messenger was an entirely private domain. It has been open to organizational messages for awhile but so few are taking advantage of it that I think for most Facebook users, they still haven't mentally made the adjustment that that's a different kind of a space now.
Kathleen: I think if you're not careful as a brand, you could easily tip the scales and really annoy somebody who's used to having Messenger only be the domain of their friends or family et cetera.
So I'd love to get your thoughts on that. How do you strike that balance so that you're not annoying people?
Moby: Yeah, I think you gotta be careful. It's funny, even though Larry Kim MobileMonkey killing at what they do, they get it wrong too.
To give you an example, they have 'cause you can follow Larry Kim and you can also follow MobileMonkey. I think they've actually learned actually, I've probably made a mistake but I think they've learned. But I remember up until recently, I'm following both of those properties so I would get a chat blast from Larry Kim and then I'd get a chat blast from MobileMonkey three seconds later. It was so annoying.
Kathleen: You're like, "Guys, I heard you the first time."
Moby: Exactly, right? And when you say it out loud it's like, "Oh my God, we're so petty. How petty am I, I get annoyed?" But we do. That's how we are.
I heard an analogy a couple of years ago online, and this sounds crude but it's kind of true. Online we are dumb, stupid idiots, so by that we mean we're impatient, we want things right away. Even the little petty things annoy us.
I'm like, "Guys, I know it's automated but at least have a different message or at least wait a week and send it on the other platform."
But I think the tightrope thing I know we can't ignore the fact that if you have a brand and if you're a bigger client, there is a lot more brand protectionism you need to think about. Smaller brands can kind of get away with it. You can almost get away with almost anything because you're not gonna have a huge backlash. Someone's not gonna put up a post that I don't know, Jim's Fishing Supplies sent two messages a week as opposed to one message a week.
Moby: Right? In terms of striking that balance, the offer that you put out, because you may need to advertise to get them on board, should dictate what type of content you need to send.
Then the frequency thing is something you just need to test. I'd probably say maybe once a month is too far, but once every two days is probably too often. And I think it is just a matter of testing things as well, and also asking them.
Because with Messenger you can ask them. If we've been on the receiving end, you would have noticed that with Messenger little menus will come up where it will say, "Okay, what size company are you?" For example. One to five, six to 10, 50 plus or whatever.
You can ask them periodically as well, what types of content do you value from us? And of course you always have to have that opt out.
Testing different content, like whatever content that seems to be working with your audience on Facebook already in your normal coms already, is probably a good bet to talk about. Then the frequency is just a trial and error thing.
Kathleen: I feel like there's also something to this that relates to the type of organization you are and the reason your audience wanted to connect with you on Messenger in the first place.
So like when you first said you're using this with restaurants, I used to have some restaurant clients here where I lived in Annapolis, Maryland. I think that's actually a really interesting use case because restaurants run specials. Some of the restaurants I worked with had events. One of them actually had a venue space where they would have bands or they would have a poetry reading night.
I think if you have things like that and you have somebody who's local and close by and interested, that's a great use case for somebody who wants to stay up to date on what's happening in your business.
Or I can imagine if you're a B2B brand and you've got somebody who's interested in your webinar series and they wanna be notified if a new one comes up.
I think where I've seen it poorly used at least from a user standpoint is for what I would call lead nurturing for a single product. Where you're constantly getting reminders of, "Hey, schedule a demo. Check out our product."
After a while, you're like "It's been four months and I haven't checked your product out. If you don't have anything new to say to me, stop."
That's just something that has struck me as a user, but I'd be curious to hear from you. What types of businesses do you think this is right for?
Moby: Yeah, so it's kind of funny because when you think back to even a couple of years ago people used to say Facebook isn't for B2B. There's so many user cases that proved that's wrong, so I know there is a context for B2B.
But to be completely honest with you, Kathleen - and it's funny most of our clients are actually B2B - but we've only done this so far with our B2C clients. We've done this with restaurants, we've done this with childcare, we did this with a martial arts company. A company that is kind of like a little bit of MMA where you can sign up to these programs.
They're the ones that we don't, so if I'm completely honest with you I don't know.
We found it worked very well with all those consumer type brands and I think with B2B, if we look at examples that have been marketed to us with, it's like you sort of said. Why do people connect with us in the first place?
There's hockey examples where ... There's bad examples where people were just sort of saying schedule a demo. That's probably also indicative of a bad content marketing strategy as well because if you're always going for the sale, particularly in the B2B world, you're not gonna get anything.
I think there is a context for everyone on the B2B side. What did they actually sign up with you for? What's working? If you don't know what's working that means maybe you don't have a content strategy. Maybe you don't have lead nurturing magnets already or you're not putting out content, you know?
You guys put out a lot of content, so you have a very good indication of what's resonating relative to other stuff. In your context or your industry rather, some of those things are gonna work quite well in Messenger.
And then I think another guideline to keep in mind is where you can be careful of sending them away from Messenger too much. Don't always be blasting things like "Here's a link to our eBook, here's a link to our eBook, here's a link to our eBook."
They're in Messenger so they're used to a conversational flow. If you wanna give them the eBook, firstly don't do it every month or every week. Spread it out with your other types of content.
But if you do want to give it to them with Messenger you can have forms. So what's your name? Can I get your name? That's ... The user can't tell but that's a form fill. That's saving somewhere in a database somewhere as a name.
Okay, awesome. Can I get your email address? Cool. Oh by the way, do you mind me asking now that I've got your email address, I don't care if you don't answer the next part, do you mind asking me what your budget is? For example, if you want. If you're feeling really brave. That's all saved somewhere now.
So the other mistake, and I see these one of the first mistakes that brands will make with the bot, and I don't blame them because we're just all learning this stuff, is I'll say, "Can't we just send them to a landing page?"
This happened to us just yesterday where a client said, "We've got these programs," so this martial arts company, we've got 10 launching across the world, "Can't we just give 10 links depending on what they give?"
I'm like, "You could, but why are we doing this in the first place? We have those links. We have ads that run to those links and those landing pages anyway. They're working in the one capacity.
This is a different strategy, so ask them for their name, email address, whatever. Try to kind of keep them there as much as you can." I think that's another, I guess, good little pro tip as well, if you're trying to use this stuff.
Kathleen: Yeah, I feel like so much of the decisions that marketers make are driven by our inherent desire to make everything so trackable, right? And if there's a way to ... We're thinking first, "Oh well if I send them to a landing page, then I get them to convert. Then I can track the conversion rate and the this and the that."
It's so clean for us but we're solving for ourselves and not necessarily for the user.
Kathleen: To that point of trackability, I'm curious, how you are measuring the results of these campaigns? Because it sounds like you've got a couple of them running, and I'd love to hear just all the way through like you talked about you've seen cost per click go down.
Have you seen ... What other metrics are you looking at that you're using to judge success?
Moby: In the Messenger context?
Kathleen: Yeah, mm-hmm (affirmative).
Moby: Yeah, with the restaurant example it's fairly simple because the codes obviously are aligned to a particular ... They're at least aligned to a channel. They're probably even aligned to an actual ad creative as well, if we really wanna get to that level. So that's definitely the case there.
It's funny like with the martial arts company, we just launched ... They have HubSpot already but we just launched it. We just wanted to get it out there, and then it actually started doing so well we're like, "Okay there's two problems there."
Now, because MobileMonkey I love these tools. They will just send you notifications, they just send you a notification. Then you rely on the client or us to go in and add it manually and say "Okay the lead source was Facebook Messenger." Which is okay but if this thing starts doing well becomes very problematic. So we ran into this problem recently.
Now we're like, "Okay, cool." Now we need to integrated with Zapier or whatever it is.
So we just kind of launched it. We didn't worry about the tracking at first and the attribution. Then we're figuring that out with the client.
But yeah, you can if you send them to a link you can use UTM parameters. That's one thing you can do, but that kind of defies the logic of why you'd wanna do this thing in the first place.
So I think there's two ways to think about it. Firstly, if we're especially in a B2B context, if we're using Messenger to give them a little bit of value, a little bit of value and maybe a little bit of value three times and then start a conversation, that becomes like a sales reps conversation.
Then I guess it's up to the sales rep to see "Okay cool if this is now an actual real lead, I'm gonna flag it and mark it as a lead in my CRM and I can track it back."
You're always gonna have human error. I'm not gonna lie Kathleen. That works because you always have like 15% of the time, it's like, "Guys, you gotta get your sales reps to use the CRM, use the leads." That's always gonna be persistent, that issue.
And on the other side, it's how you're going to be integrating with it. So with the ads if you use ... We use a tool called AdEspresso to run our Facebook ads, which is a very, very good tool. We've been using it now for about a year and a half.
With Ad Espresso, you can link up, you can install the Facebook pixel on your website and then you can link that up with your ad. And eventually if they convert, you'll be able to tell.
So it is a little bit tricky now. At this point if you're gonna be using a bot, if you're gonna be using a Messenger bot, you will need to use some sort of integration piece or rely on the sales reps who have that conversation to attribute it.
The other thing, too, to mention, Kathleen, is often these people will end up converting anyway. They say it takes six to eight touch points for someone to convert, so they may not actually convert with that ad with the coupon code for example. They may actually then go to your website on their second visit and convert that way.
If that happens, if you've set up your Facebook pixel properly, then you'll see that in your tracking and your reporting anyway. So there are a couple of holes.
I think we're all still trying to figure that out how we do that in automated fashion. But it is possible.
Kathleen: What kind of ... With the approach that you're using with the bakery, or the restaurant rather, what kinds of savings and cost per click are you realizing like on a percentage basis? You mentioned you're getting down to like 20 cents or something.
What fraction of the previous cost per click does that represent?
Moby: I would say honestly, so I'd probably say about 10% of what we were getting before.
Moby: It depends on what context and what country you're in, but it used to be that if you sent someone to a link, that was very expensive. And it's still expensive.
Then it was like, "Okay, cool." If you give them coupon codes and offers, that was a little bit cheaper, but even that's getting expensive now. Like $1.80, $2 cost per click, you know, just to send someone to a landing page to get them to download a coupon code. It really sounds uncomfortable, you know what I mean?
Moby: So Facebook doesn't want you to take people off their ecosystem anyway, and the user wants things now and fast and right away.
I think the little hack of trying to use comments to drive the Facebook Messenger really worked as well because Facebook is noticing ... Some of these posts have hundreds of comments on them. Hundreds of comments, so we're running the same posts again and again because there's all this perceived virality and conversation there. We don't need to, and only if we really have to or if it's a new offer or something or a new campaign we'll create a new post. But we try to actually use the older post for a little while anyway.
And if you don't have tools like this or you can't do something that advanced yet, then trying to instill some sort of, even the old school stuff like "Comment in 10 words or less" or "Tag someone who might be interested" or whatever. That's still going to help, although it's getting harder and harder to use ads to tag people unless they're familiar with your brand already.
Kathleen: Yeah, that's true.
Now any results that you can share in terms of the business impact this has had for your customers?
Moby: I mean, early days yeah. I mean, I can tell you in terms of redemption the cost per click is like 10% of what it was before.
In terms of redemption, in B2C the redemption is always going to be a little bit lower but we know that roughly, and also you have to look at the time as well, the time period when you offer this to someone.
But we're looking at around 30%, 25 to about 30% redemption on these codes.
We have noticed the redemption is higher than it was before, as well. So if we sent someone to a landing page, I'm almost embarrassed to say we used to send them to a landing page to get a code because it sounds so dumb ...
Kathleen: So 1980s.
Moby: Yeah, right? But that was probably around 15% so they're a little bit higher and I think that's because they get it higher. And if the average order value of, I don't know, I guess a meal is $30/$40, that does represent a significant windfall for this client who's able to get the cost per click down by 10% so you can get 10 times more leads in.
Kathleen: For less money.
Moby: They're getting ... Yeah so whatever the difference between 15% and ... So 10% more redemption as well. That's significant. In terms of how many, I don't know because I don't have that value.
Kathleen: I was gonna say, I can't do that math. I understand it but I can't do the math 'cause I'm a marketer. But it's definitely meaningful.
That's so interesting and it sounds like it's a fairly not super complicated thing to implement if you have something like a MobileMonkey.
Moby: Yes, yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
Kathleen: Very, very interesting, definitely something that I would like to test out. I'm gonna be pursuing you for more information on how you're doing the comment to Messenger, so we'll see what we can find out there.
Kathleen: Before we have to wrap up, I have two questions I always ask all of my guests, and I would love to know your answer to each of them.
The first one is company or individual, who do you think is doing inbound marketing really well right now?
Moby: Company or individual who's doing inbound marketing really well, okay.
What I do ... What I have noticed is companies and individuals who don't have anything to offer or sell are doing it the best. To give you a quick example, with our childcare client ... In every industry there's an aggregator or a directory or whatever and there's one in our particular industry.
People can Google it, it's not a big deal. It's called Careforkids.com.au 'cause we're in Australia. They don't have anything to offer, they're an aggregator, they're a directory. They don't have childcare centers or any centers at all.
Because they don't have anything to offer, all they can offer is content. Like I always ... People who are still skeptical of investing in content ... Everyone knows that they need to do it, but they're skeptical to investing to content.
I always point them to these aggregators. I'm like, "Look, they're doing so well and you know they're doing well because they're trying to sell you leads. Alright? And the only thing they have to offer is the ultimate guide to childcare or an onboarding process or they've invested three months and $10000 to do a 40 page document. Which probably people don't read. You're right Mr. or Miss client. They probably don't read but look at the authority that they've actually built."
So it's a boring example, Kathleen, but I think it's a good example because in every industry you'll notice these aggregators. They're doing the best job at content marketing 'cause they have nothing else to offer.
But the proof is in the pudding. They're selling leads back to our clients and us brands out there. So I think they're doing a pretty good job. Sorry I don't have an actual example.
Kathleen: So they're basically monetizing .... No that is a good one.
Moby: Yeah, I don't wanna say HubSpot and MobileMonkey. They all do great stuff, right? They're putting stuff out in webinars and give, give, give et cetera without being friend zoned. But I think in every industry you'll find aggregators and directories are doing a great marketing job.
Kathleen: No, I think that's a really interesting observation because essentially those types of businesses are monetizing their audiences, not a product. Their audience is the product.
Moby: That's right.
Kathleen: So to do well they have to build a big audience, and that's basically a publisher model. That's what publishers do, they monetize their audience. It's just that it's a different flavor of publisher, if you will. So I think that's really interesting that that's what you pointed to. That's something that we believe in very much at IMPACT because we've really shifted our strategy to be more like a publisher for that very reason. I think products almost follow.
Kathleen: Joe Pulizzi wrote about this in Killing Marketing. He talked about how the best way to start a business is to actually grow an audience first and your audience will naturally tell you what the product is that they want. So that when you finally create the product, you already have the audience for it and you already have the demand for it. It's a no brainer to make it successful.
It's totally flipping the model on its head, but it's kind of a fascinating idea.
Moby: Yeah, absolutely. You're not wrong there.
Kathleen: So my second question is, and this conversation is the perfect example of it. Digital marketing changes so quickly. We just talked about bots and comment to Messenger, all this really interesting stuff that's very kind of current. With everything changing so fast, how do you stay up to date? How do you educate yourself to make sure that you're on top of all these latest best practices and new emerging things that you can do?
Moby: Yeah, I mean if you're in the digital marketing sector or sphere, you have no choice. I only know this not because I'm smart but because we have a client in this space. I don't just know these stats off the top of my head, but the world economic forum estimated by 2021, all of us, all of us, will need to do 101 days extra training. You can roughly equate that to 25 days training or learning rather, a year, right? So roughly all of us, doesn't matter if you're in ... Forget digital marketing. That's probably 45 days a year, right?
But all of us should be investing in 25 days per year in learning. Otherwise I think 52% of our roles are going to be obsolete. They're saying you need to invest here because 52% of roles are going to require the skills.
Forget about what the skills are. That's a conversation for another topic. But the point is we need to do this and the way to do it is to do something ...
There's two things. Conducive to the way you learn. So if you're a social learner then go to events and say, "You know what? I can't do programmatic learning, sorry programmed learning. I can't do courses. I'm a social learner. I'm gonna try to do one every three months and learn by conversations." Maybe audio books are good for you. Maybe videos are good for you, whatever, right? And then do it in a consistent fashion.
Now that's the answer for people if you just wanna be okay. But to answer your question directly and sorry, Kathleen I'm going ...
Kathleen: No, no, no, this is so true.
Moby: I love to blab. But if you truly wanna be the best, and this isn't for everyone. This actually isn't for everyone. Not everyone has the desire first or the gumption to do this, is I truly believe you have to be a content creator in digital marketing.
And I think you know this as good as I do, Kathleen. I've got a podcast, as well. Inbound Buzz, we've been running for two and a half years or so. I noticed at one point there was no more degrees I could do in my field and the podcast is my degree now. It is my "university" now. That is my ...
Because everyone sees an article that they like or a something that they like on the web and they save it or they email it to themselves and they never read it. But when you have a podcast you save that at the end of the week and then you create your own commentary around it, for example.
Whether it's a podcast or you're more of a writer or whatever, but I think truly, truly to be ... If you want to be actually world class and in the top two to five percent of your field in terms of authority and knowledge, forget authority. Knowledge. You have to be a content creator.
"If you want to be actually world class and in the top two to five percent of your field in terms of authority and knowledge, you have to be a content creator" ~ Moby Siddique
Moby: For me, I took a couple of months off because some health reasons but I'm gonna get back into the swing of it in 2019.
But for me, that is it. And honestly, Kathleen, now that I haven't done it for a couple of months after doing it consistently for two and a half years, I feel it. I feel dumber. You know what I mean?
Kathleen: It's like when you stop exercising and you're like, "Oh my gosh. I'm out of breath." Yeah.
Moby: That's right. I just feel it. I just don't feel as sharp, you know what I mean? But when I'm doing it and I'm in flow, there's not a conversation I can have where I feel like I can't contribute if it's in the world of digital marketing. Any topic, you know?
But yeah, that's the way to do it in my opinion.
Kathleen: Absolutely could not agree more. Anyone who listens to this podcast with any degree of regularity knows that I always say I would do it even if nobody listened, which I hope that's not the case that nobody listens. I don't think it is.
But I would because I learn so much and I selfishly seek out guests that I think I have something to learn from. In fact one of my recent guests, Val Geisler who's amazing, she's this awesome email onboarding expert. She joked on the interview, she was like, "Is this a free consultation in disguise?" And I was like, "Why yes it is."
Moby: That's right, absolutely.
Kathleen: You know, it sort of is. It's great, and these are all people that I would otherwise probably have no excuse to talk to unless I stalked them or something.
So I really do agree with what you said. That's two thumbs up for podcasting.
Moby: There you go.
Kathleen: Great, well I feel like I could talk to you all day, but I know it's getting late my time, it's early in the day your time. You have a whole day ahead of you.
Moby: Yeah. We are in the future. We're in the future.
Kathleen: Yeah, as we're recording this it's only like two days before I take off for Christmas break. So I'm feeling more stressed by the day, that I have so many presents left to buy for my family. I appreciate you taking the time at this time of year to stop and spend some time and talk with me about this. So, so interesting.
Moby: It's been fun, Kathleen. And yeah, I think we'll have you on, as well.
Kathleen: Fun. I would love that. Well I appreciate it. If somebody wants to learn more about what you're doing or even get in touch with you and ask questions about what you just talked about, what's the best way for them to find you online?
Moby: Probably LinkedIn. All the other channels, a lot of them are automated. Half the time it's not even me putting out content. Probably the best place is LinkedIn. I'm very ... I interact there a lot and yeah, most of my stuff I do on LinkedIn.
Kathleen: Great. And I'll put a link to your LinkedIn in the show notes for anyone who's curious about that.
Kathleen: If you're listening and you found this conversation to be valuable or if you learned something new, please leave a review for the podcast in Apple Podcasts or the platform of your choice.
If you know somebody else, as always, doing kick ass inbound marketing work, tweet me at Work Mommy Work because they could be the next person I interview.
Thanks so much, Moby.
Moby: Thank you, Kathleen, love what you're doing. Cheers.
Kathleen: Thanks. So much fun.