Nov 26, 2018
Can you 10x your visitor-to-lead capture rates while dramatically lowering your cost per acquisition (CPA)? Seems too good to be true, but it's not...
on The Inbound Success Podcast, MOV-ology Co-Founder Peter Norton
talks about his company's approach to addressing web form
abandonment and how addressing this one stage in the funnel can
make a major impact on marketing ROI.
Some highlights from our discussion include:
Listen to the podcast to learn how MOV-ology's web form abandonment solution can help to increase your visitor-to-lead conversions and make an immediate impact on ROI.
Peter Norton (Guest): Hi. Thanks, Kathleen. Appreciate being here.
Peter and Kathleen recording this episode
Kathleen: Yes, I'm glad you're here because we've started working with you guys, and I am really intrigued by what MOV-ology does. When I first heard about it, it kind of seemed too good to be true, but it's not. Few of those things that seem too good to be true are really not too good to be true, so I'm excited to share this with listeners and also dig in a little bit more and talk about the use cases for what you guys offer. Before we go there, though, can you just take a few minutes and tell our listeners about yourself and about the company, and about what you do?
Peter: Yeah. No, thank you. Peter Norton, and I have been in the direct marketing space/inbound leads space for many, many years and worked at fairly large email providers, and throughout that career, which led me to founding MOV-ology was just the optimization of the lead flow and finding areas to increase leads without reinventing the wheel, and figuring out ways to make small level adjustments that had large gains in what they were already doing.
That was our "aha" moment, 2010, when my co-founder Tom Lee and I got together and talked about it. That's how MOV-ology started, was figuring out a way to create a large impact, with just some minor adjustments. That's where we came up with the idea, and the thought about shopping cart abandonment was always a very big thing through the last 10 or 15 years, but people were focusing very much on E-commerce and not on the web forms. There's more forms and more lead forms than there is commerce.
That's when we looked into it, and over the last five or six years, we've been able to secure four patents in that space. We've been enjoying the software ride to where we are today.
Kathleen: That's great. Now before we go any further, I have to make one disclaimer, which is that I'm getting over a cold and I guarantee you, anyone who's listening, that I will be coughing through this podcast.
Peter: Me too.
Kathleen: Peter is suffering from air quality issues. Share what's going on on your end.
Peter: California's in an apocalypse, from what the rest of the country seems to think, but it's really bad. We have fires in all parts of California. It's not good. Definitely been thinking good thoughts and trying to help where we can, but yeah, the fires are still burning and it is everywhere you go; you can smell it in your house, in your car, all over the place.
Kathleen: It's so sad what's going on out there. It's hard to believe. I'm knocking on a piece of wood as I say this, but out where I'm based, which is Annapolis, Maryland, we don't fall subject to very many natural disasters and weather phenomenons. The worst we get is we'll get, maybe if it's really terrible, a category one hurricane.
Kathleen: Maybe a snowstorm every now and then, but we're pretty damn lucky here. I look at what you guys are going through, and my heart just breaks for you. It's really awful. That might be the reason that the two of us sound, well I might sound a little bit more like Kathleen Turner, and I'm trying to think, who's a guy that has a really gravelly voice?
Peter: Al Pacino?
Kathleen: Yeah. We'll have our alter egos going today with our super gravelly voices and also our hacking smoker's coughs.
So, back to the subject at hand. If I understand correctly, it sounds like really what led you to creating MOV-ology was this concept that there were a lot of solutions in place to deal with shopping cart abandonment on the E-commerce side but no equivalent for form abandonment on the traditional web form side of things. Is that accurate?
Peter: Yes, that is correct. There obviously were other solutions that people were employing in regards to remarketing, but it wasn't specifically triggered off figuring out where in the form they abandoned and if they left identifiable information and contacting them in a legal manner that also did not create a lot of friction with that customer of potential customer.
Kathleen: Yeah. Let's get kind of technical for a second. Somebody wants to use your product and they want to understand essentially, "Who is starting to fill out my forms but not finishing?" How does that work? Is it a complicated product to work with? How do you install it?
Kathleen: That's pretty sweet. So it sounds like even a technological newbie like me could figure it out.
Peter: Right. Well our slogan here in the office and when we talk to people is "So simple, even IT can handle it."
Kathleen: Ah. I won't tell that to my IT person. I love it. So full transparency, we've started using MOV-ology. I was really intrigued by it when I heard about it, and we're just really testing it out. When I first of it, I was like, "Oh, I'd love to know who's filling out my bottom-of-the-funnel consultation request forms and not hitting submit or not getting all the way through" because there is some intent data there that's really pretty interesting.
Can you walk me through some of the different ways that the companies you're working with are using the product?
Peter: Yeah, absolutely. The nice thing about our product is that we capture information on all forms. Whether you have one form or thirty forms and whether they be different technologies that were used to build those forms or host those forms, we're able to capture that information and separate that data out for you in real time.
We're able to tell you, for example, a thousand people went to this page with a form and a hundred people started it, one submitted. We can tell you 43 of them gave information, and of the information, 22 were contactable information, whether it be an address, a mobile phone, or an email address perform.
We're able to provide that data in real time, so as campaigns are being run; in your case, you guys have different forms running for different reasons, so you're able to zone in very quickly and understand what's working, and even try changing some of the messaging that's going into that and/or understand on a personalized level for each form to re-market to those individuals as well.
Those are some of the cases that we're seeing people use them for.
Registration, lead forms, information is really big. The other thing that we're seeing a trend in with some of our clients is shorter forms: first name, last name, and email address. Simple as can be. It's amazing when auto fill data that's there and they don't hit "submit," people think, "Oh, the shorter form I have, I'm going to have a much higher impact." Actually, we're seeing more drop off with the shorter form than with the maybe five or six fields.
It's very interesting data. Customers are trying to understand the behavior of these users that are trying to register and/or become a lead.
Kathleen: So wait, I want to make sure I understand that correctly. If what you're saying I understand correctly, then it kind of runs counterintuitive to what we're all told, which is that the fewer fields you ask people to fill out, the more likely they are to complete the form.
What I hear you saying is that that's not necessarily the case. Is that accurate?
Peter: Correct, and we have some hard data to back up that particular use case.
Again, there's many different use cases but we have a fairly substantial amount of data around that, and we have a specific use case around where it was just first name, last name, and email address.
Kathleen: Now, why do you think that is?
Peter: You know, it's trying to get into the psyche of the consumer, right, whether it be B2B or B2C. There's many different reasons.
The top reason that we see, one, is something distracted them. We see a much higher abandonment on mobile obviously; that is what everybody is experiencing. Mobile's a big one.
Two, we start to see the behavior of, "You know what? I don't want to start down this path of giving information. I'm just not ready right now" or something along that way. They just didn't have enough confidence to give that information, because a lot of consumers are getting used to that "give me your email address," hit next, "give me your phone number," hit next. They're kind of like, "Ah, I'm not ready for that yet. I'm interested but I'm not."
The third kind of big reason is just "the wind blew in," for whatever reason. Somebody had another meeting-
Kathleen: Somebody knocked on my door in the middle of it.
Peter: Exactly, yeah.
Kathleen: So on average, what percentage of people who begin to fill out forms don't complete them? Is there any kind of data around that?
Peter: Yeah, on our data that we're tracking, if you have a thousand people go to the page for the form and a hundred people started the form, we see one would complete it, and of that, forty of those people would actually start to give information that actually was contactable information.
Kathleen: Wait. Okay, so a thousand people come to the page. A hundred, or 10%, start the form, and what you're telling me is at the end of the day, only 1% are actually submitting.
Peter: Correct. The reason why those numbers seem a little more probably not what most people see, but when you start getting to higher volume accounts and higher volume pages, those numbers are fairly true.
It's a fairly low conversion. Less traffic; it's going to be less, but it takes, as people know, if you get a hundred or a thousand people to a form and it's small business, you're lucky to get one person to fill it out.
Kathleen: That's actually shocking to me. I spend a lot of time talking to companies that are looking at working with agencies for their lead gen marketing.
The conversation I always have, it's like the same conversation every time, which is, "Do you understand what your current funnel is? How many visitors do you get? How many leads do you get off of those visitors, and how many of those leads turn into sales?"
Well first, not everybody really knows what their funnel is. That's problem number one.
Problem number two, then, is they know what their funnel is, and I think a lot of companies assume that if you take the formula you just gave me where, let's say you have a thousand visitors. Ten of those turns into leads and one turns into a customer. A lot of people think that the easiest way to get double the customer number is to double the traffic when in fact, that's a longer, harder slog than just improving your conversion rate by a percent.
That can have a substantial difference.
What I'm hearing you say is that there is tremendous, like tremendously significant potential for improving conversion rates not even of getting more visitors to consider filling out the form, but getting the people that started to fill out the form to finish filling it out.
Peter: Right, and that's the key. There are so many hand-raisers on all facets of forms that we wanted, from B2B, B2C, low volume, high volume. People are raising their hands, and I think everyone themselves, you and myself included, I do the same thing.
I'm in the space and I still do it. I chuckle. I'm like, "I'm abandoning this form right now." It just happens, but it doesn't mean that I'm not a lead.
It just happens, but it doesn't mean that I'm not going to lead and I actually would want to speak to that company just it wasn't the right time.
Kathleen: I'm still reeling about that data because if what you say is true, and I'm not saying you're lying, I'm just saying it's amazing, then the potential is you can 10X your conversion rate just by eliminating form abandonment.
Kathleen: That's huge.
Peter: Or not even eliminating, just having a strategy to get back to those people. One thing we always talk internally, when some people, because the same thing, the same reaction we hear all the time, we just don't understand that.
Think of a retail store. How many people walk into a store in the mall? You have 100 people walk into the store, you may have three or four purchase something, you have several browsing that are interested, and they walk away.
What if you had a way to literally be in front of them, to nudge them about your product? The numbers are there from what we see in a physical sense, in the store, let alone, or brick and mortar, the same thing kind of goes to online.
Having a marketing strategy, and more importantly, in regards to your hand warmers, which are a lead at some level, some scoring level, they are interested in your product.
Kathleen: That's huge, that is huge. I mean, it really is. From a marketing stand point, that gets me very excited.
Kathleen: I will leave it there. It's exciting. Somebody hears us, and they're like "Wow, I need to do that." Obviously, having the data is just the first step. You put this technology on your site, you all of a sudden have this data that there's all these people that are starting to fill out your forms, and they're not completing them.
What should people do with this data? How should they use it? You mentioned remarketing. What are some effective strategies that you've seen companies used to tackle this?
Peter: Well, contrary to a lot of stuff that I've been reading recently, where a lot of people are still debating if email is a proper marketing medium to get people back. I think it absolutely is a relevant tool when used correctly.
In our particular case, when someone leaves an email address, whether it be to auto-fill and/or they typed it in themselves, our messaging that goes back to them, or that we recommend with our clients is, again we just call it a nudge and it's just a reminder, one or two hours after they abandon the form, a couple days from there, and then a few days from there.
Our complaint rates are just not even on the charts, and the bounce rates are even lower, against all the industry stats that's out there. The reason why, is because they went to the brand, whatever it may be, and they know it.
So when that email comes though the separate clients, it's not forceful, it's just "Hey, did you forget about us?" or "Do you have questions?" It's very non-aggressive, it's not like car sales where you see "Buy now, the sale ends in one hour." Just a gentle nudge and it gets a little more progressive 'til the last one says "Hey, we're going to leave you alone and just remember us in the future."
The email has become a very, very big part of our strategy and working with our customers on.
The other part is mobile. SMS, when someone leaves a mobile number, and it matches an SMS number, by law you are allowed to reach out to that person. You can put writing or content on that site saying we may send you a text message. The nice thing about mobile is that, they can say no. It's a text message, it's regulated by all the providers, which is fantastic. Email is not, so the spam traps and so on is a bit of a challenge that we deal with, but we have very high deliverability rates, just how we work with our clients on it.
Mobile's been big because you see 80 to 90% engagement. That just takes it to a whole new level. Now you're on the person's phone and they love that relationship now because "Wait a minute, now I can be autonomous, but I can get what I want through my mobile, through chatting."
The other part that we're now working with some customers on is through personalized direct mail, or personalized catalogs. So based on data that the customer may have collected, and they may be a catalog-type company or personalized messaging in the inbox of their ... or their mailbox, in conjunction with an email saying, "Hey, check your mailbox in the next two days," because we know that that personalized direct mail piece is mailed out with an offer just for you. It's become very, very engaging, and we're starting to see that.
So those are the three areas that we're working with the customers on. Email, by far, is the lowest cost and the highest impact right now, and then, again, mobile, and then personalized direct mail.
Kathleen: Oh, man. My head is swimming with ideas of ways I could do things with this because as soon as you said personalized ... the word personalized, what sprung to my head was we use Vidyard, and they have this awesome personalized video solution where it can pull a first name from your database and it can send that person a video, and it looks like ... it'll be a video, for example, of me holding a whiteboard, but they're first name written on it. It's just inserted there through the technology, and I can imagine that something like that would be incredibly powerful, like, "Hey, did you forget to hit submit on your form?" With the first name. That would be amazing.
Peter: Yeah. Along with other personal information, you can get down to where they are, geographically, or demographically. There's so much that can be done. Absolutely.
Kathleen: Now, it sounds like, from what you said, that key to doing this well is, for lack of a better word, acknowledging that. How you came to contact them. In other words, like, "We saw that you started filling out a form and didn't finish it." Instead of trying to pretend like it's a coincidence that this email is coming right after they started filling out a form. Fair to say?
Peter: Right. Absolutely. Be as transparent as you can, and be as specific as you can so that it can trigger that memory 'cause, as you know, everybody has many different reasons as to why they abandoned. There could be lots going on, and they might, "Oh! That's right. I remember that."
And so imagery that's very close to what they had done, language of what triggered them, so many different ways in regards to make it as personal as possible, what they experienced and when they abandoned that.
Again, we've tested so much different creative, we continue to test it all the time, but that is, by far, the most impactful that we see with that.
The other part is we're seeing the data come back from our clients is these are much higher converting customers as well because you think someone that comes through a process to the form, and the become a lead, and then they set up an appointment, lets just say for an in home service of some sort, and they look at a conversion rate of those versus people that can to the site, they left for whatever reason, we were able to get them to come back and they look at those conversion rates, and those conversion rates are two, three x considerably in regards to converting to a sale.
Because again if you went to a website and you filled out a form and you left and you got brought back you're much more engaged. You're already part a lot of the roadblocks of purchasing and or whatever that service may be and committing to.
Kathleen: Yeah, wow, that's great, and I definitely think its more inboundy to be upfront about how you came to get into their inbox.
I feel like these days we're all pretty savvy we know that when were on Amazon.com and we're looking at that pair of running sneaker, then all of sudden we go to another website and that pair of running sneakers is following us around the internet, I think most people are pretty savvy to how that's happening.
We're gonna figure out anyway, so it's nice to just be upfront.
So people are using the data either to text their audience or direct mail them or email them, what kinds of results are you guys seeing with this?
Peter: That's a great question. We have a very specific use case that we will make available to everyone after this. And it was an online subscription show company and their the largest on the planet regards to a monthly subscription you can pay x amount of dollars and you get highly customized, highly detailed shoes sent to you-
Kathleen: Wait there's a company that sends you a new pair of shoes every month and I don't know about it? We need to connect afterwards cause I might be their newest customer.
Peter: Absolutely. There are several questions that are asked as a new user when you visit the website and so they had asked us to do a 30 to 40 day test because they were very skeptical after their several style questions you get to a section where you have to give a first and last name and email address, and then from that point you enter their store. So to speak, you get to see what they chose for you, and the different plans.
So they were very skeptical thinking ah there's not that many people abandoning the process but they knew that they were driving a lot people to their website. They knew that. They knew a lot of people were going through the funnel but they couldn't figure out easily throughout the millions of terabytes of data where people really were dropping out. S
o, during that 45 day test that we did, 32,890 people filled out the form, their first, last name and email address, and went into the store. 101,000 started the form and abandoned.
Peter: So the exact number is 101,203 were abandoned. So they started the form and they just left.
And from that point what we did is we created a three part marketing strategy. One hour after they abandoned, two day and then three days so from the abandon.
And the same things, messaging was just very soft, you know "Come on back, if you have any questions call here or click here to finish you form or to enter the store."
So during that period we sent roughly 254,000 emails in a series of three emails so some people converted at one or two or three. And we were able to convert 25,815 people into sale so we almost doubled their sales in regards to conversions.
Kathleen: That's unbelievable, and its basically as somebody I know would call it, "free chicken." You know it's just out there waiting for you to grab it.
Peter: Right and there's CPA costs where they track the CPA cost to roughly 30 dollars and with this when you add in the 45 day program that we entered in, the 25000, they got down to 17 dollars CPA.
Kathleen: What? That's ridiculous. In a good way.
Peter: In a good way. No, this case its ... you know they have a dollar value towards it because they are not so much e-commerce, but we ... very similar for if it's just a lead form that they track internally with whatever it may be.
But yeah this was a typical case that we see day in day out with out customers.
Kathleen: That's amazing. Now do any of your customers use the form abandonment data in order to re-target using pay per click or social ads?
Peter: They do and actually what they're finding is the data they were using to trigger people just going to their website and maybe this page and that page, and they were using dynamic page search ads what they learned is the data from the people in the form versus people that were going website were completely different, and we start employ different messaging, highly personalized, highly dynamic messaging for people that started the form.
They're seeing results that they ... there's no white papers or case studies about those types of numbers in paid search. There is typically not a very high converting. You have to do a lot of volume and a lot ... there's a lot of those ads following around in around to get a person to come back.
Kathleen: Really interesting. Now do you use ... I'm assuming you use your product for yourselves and how you market technology.
Kathleen: So under the assumption that you are your own best practices, how are you guys using it?
Peter: We actually kind of have a couple of fun demo pages which we're gonna have the ability for our visitors to go and try out. So we do different programs, one is just try it and then we'll send you an email to show you what we captured, and really what we call it is "Don't hit submit."
Kathleen: I think this is so funny because every marketer on Earth is like "How do I get people to submit my form?" and you're like "I have a campaign entirely built around 'do not hit the submit button'."
Kathleen: That's awesome.
Peter: Exactly, right so that's kind of what we do with our campaign. We have some within, and it's amazing. There's no submit button. The submit button actually, on one of our programs, moves so they can't touch it. It just keeps moving across the screen.
Kathleen: That's so funny. I think that's so funny.
Peter: Yeah, and then sometimes we do a really kindergarten version. "Okay, step one: put your email address. Step two: ..." And there's an arrow pointing to X the screen out, or "Go to the bathroom and come back and there'll be an email sitting in your box, or a text message." So we have some fun with that and do that.
Kathleen: I love it, that's great.
Now, the biggest question, of course, that I'm sure everybody's wondering who's listening to this, because they're probably all like, "This is really cool. It seems too good to be true. How much does it cost? Because maybe it's too good to be true, or maybe it's so great, but is it affordable?"
How does the pricing work for the product?
Peter: Yeah, no, that's a great question. We're on a pay per lead basis. So we're performance-based.
Peter: We want to be a partner, and the pricing just depends on the volume that we work with on that.
Kathleen: Great, so it sounds like it's not outrageous. If you're ... Certainly you can try it for free, and if you're starting at $99 dollars a month, that's a pretty easy "yes" if you think you could do what some of your examples have done, which is double, triple, or more of their conversion rates. That becomes a no brainer. Lower your cost per acquisition in the course of doing it, even better.
Peter: Right, exactly.
Kathleen: That's great. Now, is there a certain volume of form fills or lead that a company needs to have to really make sense?
Peter: You know, we always debate that internally and we always have those discussions.
If you're email marketing and you're spending money to drive traffic, or making effort to drive traffic to sign up, it doesn't matter if you have 10 people a month or 1000 people in a day signing up for those forms.
Our product works on all levels. And in some cases where they maybe only get 10 leads a month, the value of that product or service that they offer may be very high valued. So to them, one extra person in a month can make the difference in exceeding a huge stretch goal in sales, or just meeting goals of sales because sales have been challenging.
So, we have some very, very low volume customers, and I'm talking 10-15 leads a month, but again, the commonality that we look for is, "Are you spending money and are you making efforts to get inbound leads?" And if you are, then our product is good for you.
Kathleen: Yeah, that makes sense.
Well, fascinating and you know, it's funny. I kind of made an exception for my conversation with you, because normally on this podcast, I do talk to a lot of marketing technology vendors, but generally I don't like the podcast to be an advertisement for the product because that's not what we're about. We're about, "What are some strategies and tactics you can use to get better results with your marketing?" But in your case, I just don't think there's any way to talk about it without talking about the product, because the product is the strategy, and it's so frickn' cool.
I'm just personally really interested in it, so that's why I was like, "I think we're just going to talk about this product, because it's awesome."
Peter: Well thank you.
Kathleen: Yeah, I don't do that very often, in fact. And I usually coach my martech vendors, when I talk to them, not to talk about their product, so there you have it.
For those who are listening, this is the first and potentially the only exception to that rule, but it's neat, and we're really having fun seeing the data coming in on our end. We're still very early, so to be perfectly candid, we're not at the stage where we have results yet, we're just watching data come in, but I'm excited. And that was part of why I wanted to talk to you was to pick your brain about the different ways that we could follow-up on some of that data.
Kathleen: Now, there are two questions that I always ask my audience, that I really want to find your answers to.
The first is, you obviously are working with lots of clients that are doing inbound marketing. That's kind of the customer base that you have. Who do you think is really knocking it out of the park right now? Could be a company or could be a person.
Kathleen: Say her name again so I can make sure I can get it right.
Peter: Shama Hyder.
Kathleen: Shama Hyder.
Peter: She's with Zen Media. Yeah, and then Scott Brinker. And it's hard because I didn't say Scott just because of HubSpot, but I have followed Scott, and Scott, he is all over the planet, and just all about inbound, and marketing technology. So I'm going to go with Scott Brinker on that one.
Kathleen: That's great. Well and the first name, Shama Hyder, is one that I have not heard before, so I always love that.
I'm familiar with Scott Brinker and I agree with you. He is incredible. He somehow manages to be in, what seems like, 50 places at once at all times, but I always love new names because it's just a new person or company to check and follow.
Kathleen: Now, the second question is that digital marketing is changing so quickly and I'm really curious how you stay up-to-date, how you educate yourself, and how you stay on the cutting edge.
Peter: That's a good one. So, my go to is Google Alerts. I create Google Alerts all day long for anything that I see, and I just get instant.
So all day long, I'm getting fed information. So I hear something in a meeting, or someone says something, I'm like, "Oh, that's interesting. I'd like to follow that." That's the first thing.
And my second, and really where I spend most of my time, is on LinkedIn. There's constant groups that are always updating in all technology, all facets. And because they've really done a great job with the mobile part, I get alerts very easily on my phone that I can check. And if I like it, I'll read more about it, but those are my two that I use all day long.
Kathleen: Any particular LinkedIn groups that you really recommend?
Peter: Oh, I think Marketing and Technology Executives. Those are just ... The people in that group are so active, and I believe there's a couple hundred thousand in that group from the U.S. And it is all day long, chatter, talking, what worked, what didn't work, did you hear about this? It's a really good, engaging group and that's what I like. I like to have that, and sometimes people just put stuff out there like, "Hey, this doesn't have anything to do with us, but maybe it does." And then, "Oh." And then that leads to a great conversation.
And people there are always active. I think probably at one point, 50 to 80 people are constantly, within minutes, are commenting on something or talking about something that they've seen. So, as big as we seem to think that we're able to know all the information that's out there, it's amazing how just someone says to me, "Wow, I've never even heard that." And that's what I like about that particular group.
Kathleen: Yeah, that's a good one. I'll have to check that out. And my other question I have to ask you is, getting all those instant Google Alerts, how do you prevent yourself from complete shiny penny syndrome and getting distracted all day long?
Peter: Oh, well it shuts off. When I go home, it is in the basket and turned off until the next morning, because I am chasing things all the time like, "That's neat, that's neat."
But I've created a pretty good system, fool proof system, that ... And it's just a ranking system, one to five. And if it's one, it goes in there and that gets attention every week. And a two or three, maybe every quarter, and the other ones are maybe just when I'm really bored sitting on a plane for six hours.
Kathleen: That's actually very interesting. I've never heard of that system before, and it is intriguing. So that's a new one.
Peter: I've been doing that for a few years, because otherwise I was always, I didn't even know where to even start and then forget about something. When something came in and I was walking to a meeting and I saw the Google Alert, I'm like, "Oh, that's very interesting." Well, then I'll just mark it in the one folder, then I know that I can go back and look at that, and that's something I thought at that time was of value.
Kathleen: Love that approach, that's great.
Kathleen: Well I am incredibly interested in what you guys are doing. I think it's fascinating. It's such a tremendous well of untapped potential from a lead gen standpoint, and I'm certain that there are many people listening who have questions and want to learn more about MOV-ology. What is the best way for them to learn more about the product, as well as to reach out to you online if they have questions?
Peter: Perfect yeah, well thank you. So they can visit MOV-ology, it's M-O-V-O-L-O-G-Y, dot com. And on there they'll have information that we talked about today, along with all the other information. They can try to not submit a form to us, and also my contact information on there, but best is also looked up on LinkedIn. And it's just forward slash Norton Peter. N-O-R-T-O-N, Peter, P-E-T-E-R.
Kathleen: All right, so you heard it here. Movology.com and I will put that link in the show notes. And your challenge, if you choose to accept it, is to go to that page and not hit submit on the form. First time you'll ever hear that on this podcast for sure. So I'm going to definitely do that as soon as we finish. I think that'll be a lot of fun to test out.
That's all we have for this week. So, if you liked what you heard, please give us a review on Apple Podcast or the platform of your choice. It makes a big difference, puts us in front of lots more listeners. And if you know somebody else that's doing kick-ass inbound marketing work, Tweet me @workmommywork, because I would love to interview them. That's it for this week. Thank you, Peter.
Peter: Thank you Kathleen, I appreciate it.